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Citation: McEwen, Matthew. “Ignatius of Loyola and John Wesley: A Conversation 
About Scripture.” April 29, 2021, Tyndale University, Toronto, Ontario: MPEG-4, 
39:34 min.

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Pleasure to welcome Matthew McEwen as our presenter for this next paper. Matthew is a pastor at Holtfree Methodist Church 
in Mount Albert, just north of Toronto. He's also a Tyndale alumnus, three time Tyndale alumnus, and most recently did his 
Doctor of Ministry, focusing on Wesley and spiritual formation. And that's relevant to his paper that he's going to be presenting 
now. So welcome, Matthew, and please go ahead and take it away.

Well, thank you very much. And at first it may seem that Ignatius of Loyola and John Wesley have little in common. Ignatius was a 
wounded war veteran, a Spaniard, a Roman Catholic, John Wesley a minister even before the Alder State experience, British, a member 
of the Church of England. Despite his historic and geographic differences between the two men, the differences that exist between the 
Protestants and Catholics, beyond the mere fact that they both engaged in renewal efforts that created movements, the Jesuits and Methodists, 
they share a number of similarities and approach. A possible conversation between these two spiritual leaders would likely explore the 
positive points of comparison. Beginning perhaps with their emphasis on mission conversion, they shared an emphasis on spiritual formation 
with their respective approaches to discipleship. Ignatius of Loyola created the Spiritual Exercises, whereas John Wesley had rules or a method 
for all of life and faith. And so, with these points of similarity between these two men, their conversation would also find compatibility and 
approach and purpose in the reading of Scripture. There is a particular approach to Scripture that's closely associated with the Ignatian 
tradition and yet a spiritual discipline that is consistent with the Wesleyan reading of Scripture and faith. The story is told that John Wesley 
was preaching May 1548 near Dublin, Ireland. As he was preaching, a man in the crowd shouted, he is a Jesuit. That is plain. Sorry, I can't do 
the Irish accent for that line. The Roman Catholic priest who happened to be in the crowd responded with, no, he is not. I would to God he was. 
This reply from the Catholic may seem like a compliment, but Wesley's adversaries saw the comparison between Wesley and the Jesuits as opportunity 
for criticism. One of Wesley's critics was Bishop William Warburton. He accused Wesley of being an enthusiast. Warburton's description of the 
enthusiasm is that it's kind of an ebulation of ferment, a critical ferment of the mind. Its fervor soon rise into madness, unchecked by reasons. 
According to Warburton, Ignatius of Loyola was the greatest example of this kind of enthusiast, and Wesley was obviously the diligent imitator. 
In the article The Influence of the Ignatian Tradition, Philip Sheldrick explains the apparent enthusiasm present in early Methodism led to 
accusations that Wesley was a disciple of Loyola in a satire the fanatic Saint Displayed, and his stress on the necessity of good works led to a 
Calvinist attack entitled The Jesuit Detected. Wesley's preachers were often compared to friars or described as crypto paths, and describes in an 
effort to refute these accusations, John Wesley publishes an open letter, a letter to the Author of The Enthusiasm of Methodist, and Papers compared 
1750. In it, he addresses the claim that he has adopted theology from a Jesuit, A-J-E. Nierenberg, and he says, Sir, I know not the man I am holy, 
stranger to both his person and his doctrine. Sheldray's review of a possible influence of the Ignatian tradition, and John Wesley admits Wesley was 
a person in whom an astonishing number of spiritual tributaries converged and were synthesized. However, that remains evidence for direct Ignatian 
influence on John Wesley is slight, except to some degree through secondary sources. There's also the curious detail that Wesley included a number 
of substantial Catholic writers, spiritual writers, in his Christian library, but there are no Jesuits among them. The only specific reference to 
Ignatius of Loyola and the works of John Wesley are in his journal entry from August 16, 1742 I wrote to Oxford, and then the next day to Epstein. 
On Wednesday and Thursday and riding from Epsilon to Bristol, I read over that surprising book, the Life of Ignatius of Loyola. Surely one of the greatest 
men that ever was engaged in support of so bad a cause, I wonder any man should judge him to be an enthusiast. It's difficult to say whether John Wesley was 
familiar with the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius. No doubt, though his sermon The Catholic Spirit or John Wesley's Letter to a Roman Catholic would suggest 
he would be open to this conversation, even though his journal entry continues and compares Ignatius of Loyola with Count Zinzendorf. Before looking at this 
similarity between Ignatius and Wesley and their approach to Scripture, their shared view of spiritual formation needs to be understood. The reading of 
Scripture is an important spiritual discipline in spiritual formation, and one of the aims of spiritual formation is mission. M. Robert Mohullan defines 
spiritual formation as the process of being formed in the image of Christ for the sake of others. Ignatius and Wesley read Scripture in a way that 
informed their mission and their respective movements. Louisa Gallagher's article, A Wesleyan Ignation Approach to Spiritual Formation: A Case Study 
in Jesuit Higher Education, identifies three areas of focus students in Jesuit higher education need to be trained in cognitive thinking, the inward 
journey, and the outward expression. According to Gallagher, Ignatian spirituality is not merely the accumulation of information, but a transforming, a 
relational, practical encounter with the living God. And her conclusion states that there's more in common between the traditions than originally 
anticipated with regards to spiritual formation. The commonality between these two traditions is clear. Jesuits are often called contemplatives in 
action, focusing on action and reflection in their spiritual development. In a similar understanding to spiritual formation, a Wesleyan expression of 
faith balances the works of piety with the works of mercy. In the sermon on Visiting the Sick, John Wesley describes the works of mercy as necessary, 
essential for spiritual formation. So whether it's people who are contemplatives in action or those engaged in works of piety and works of mercy, 
spiritual formation leads to mission. The Jesuit expression, the world is our house is echoed in John Wesley's statement the world is my Parish. 
And when it comes to conversion, it's been said that both Wesley and Ignatius there is a firm conviction that the process of conversion, if genuine, 
must immediately show itself in a transformation of life, a determination to place oneself as totally as possible at the service of God.
Therefore, a supposed conversation between Ignatius and John Wesley would find this common ground in the area of spiritual formation and mission. In a letter 
that Ignatius had written, his pastoral heart is evident more than anything else I should wish to awaken in you the pure love of Jesus Christ, the desire for 
his honor and for the salvation of souls whom he has redeemed. It's safe to suggest that with regards to this sentiment, john Wesley would be in full agreement. 
Another possible topic of conversation between the two men is the potential to encounter God in all things. In fact, the phrase finding God in all things 
instead is the hallmark of Ignatian spirituality. In another letter that Ignatius wrote, he refers to various spiritual exercises assigned for perfection. 
Perhaps another point of conversation between the two. But then Ignatius adds to the list that there should also be the practice of seeking God's 
presence in all things in conversation and walks and all that you see, taste, hear and understand in all your actions, because God's divine majesty 
is truly in all things by his presence, power and essence. Likewise, in Wesley's sermon, The Sermon on the Mount, Part Three, John Wesley refers to 
Matthew five, verse eight the pure in heart shall see God. And Wesley says, the great lesson, which our blessed Lord is called hacier, which he illustrates 
by this example, is that God is in all things, and we are to see the Creator in the glass of every creature. We should use and look upon nothing as separate 
from God, which indeed is kind of a practical atheism. But what true magnificence thought survey heaven and earth and all that is contained by God and in the 
hollow of his hand, who by his intimate presence holds them all in being, who pervades and actuates the whole created frame, and is a true sense the soul of 
the universe. In the book Spiritual Formation a Wesleyan paradigm, this hallmark of Ignatian spirituality is found John Wesley calls us to watch for God, to 
look for his fingerprints in ordinary life, watch for how he's working in our lives and in the lives of those around us watching as one metaphor listening 
another. God wants to communicate with us and often uses ordinary aspects of life to do so. We hear God from any place we inhabit, from the church sanctuary 
to the streets, from the highway to the mountaintops, from the study to the supermarket, God is present and waiting for us to turn our attention to Him.
The challenge is for us to be fully present in the spaces we inhabit. Finding God in all things means experiencing God through all of life, including positive 
or negative events. The Ignatian terminology here is constellation and desolation. When it comes to consolation and desolation, the Ignatian response is 
one of indifference. In The Principle and Foundation, Annotation, number 15, Ignatius writes the one giving the Exercises should not urge the one receiving 
them towards poverty or any other promise more than towards their opposites, or to one state or way of life more than another. During these Spiritual 
Exercises, when a person is seeking God's will, it is more appropriate, far better, that the Creator and Lord Himself should communicate Himself to the 
devout soul, embracing it with love, inciting it to praise Him, disposing it for the way of life, which will most enable the soul to serve Him in the 
future. Accordingly, the one giving the Exercises ought not to lean or include in either direction, but rather while standing by, like the pointer of a 
scale in equilibrium, allow the Creator to deal immediately with the creature, in the creature with its Creator and Lord. Indifference is not lack of 
care, the absence of desire. It's rather an openness to whatever God may deem best. Another writer on the Ignatian tradition and this topic of 
indifference explains it this way it is the desire for indifference before a loving God that opens a person towards clarity of ends and means. 
Our end is union with our loving Creator, redeemer and sanctifier everything else health or sickness, long life or short life, et cetera. It's a 
means to this end. While any one of us would naturally prefer one means rather than another, indifference acknowledges that our end is attainable 
through many means. So it's one thing to find God in all things. An encounter with God is possible through consolation and desolation. But this 
Ignation indifference, this openness, is I find in the heart of the Wesley covenant Prayer I am no longer my own, but yours. Put me to what you 
will, rank me, with whom you will put me to doing, put me to suffering. Let me be employed for you, or they decide for you, exalted for you, or 
brought low for you. Let me be full, let me be empty, let me have all things, let me have nothing. I freely and wholeheartedly yield all things to 
your pleasure and disposal. Finding God in all things includes consolation and desolation. Since it's possible to encounter God in all things, the 
imagination is not beyond the work of Holy Spirit. The Ignatian approach to the reading of Scripture is called Gospel contemplation. The practice 
involving the imagination is included in the Spiritual Exercises. It's been said that Ignatius did not invent this type of prayer, but he did 
sharpen its focus, he made specific suggestions for its practice. Gospel contemplation is an exercise of imagining a passage of Scripture and 
experiencing it with all your senses, as if you are truly present in the scene. So, as one writer explains in the course of the Exercises, Ignatius 
proposes many such scenes from the Gospels. For imaginative contemplation, he chooses scenes of Jesus acting, rather than Jesus teaching and telling 
parables. He wants us to see Jesus interacting with others, Jesus making decisions, Jesus moving above, Jesus ministering. He doesn't want us to think 
about Jesus. He wants us to experience Him. He wants Jesus to fill our senses. He wants us to meet Him. This spiritual discipline, it's more than just 
a practice of daydreaming. Again, another writer puts it this way through the act of contemplation, the Holy Spirit makes present a mystery of Jesus 
life in a way that is meaningful for you. Now, use your imagination. Dig deeper into the story so that God may communicate with you in a personal, 
evocative way. In this approach to Scripture and the Ignatian tradition, God is experienced in all things, including your imaginative entry into the 
biblical text. This is also related to spiritual formation, as Gregory Boyd explains, what Ignatius clearly understood was that it's not what, you 
know intellectually that affects your life. It's what you experience, what is concrete and tangible that transforms your life. And the central place 
where we experience spiritual realities is the imagination. Ignatius clearly saw the need for abstract ideas to be incarnate in our imagination if 
they're to have transforming power. He understood that God who became incarnate, who inspired the Scripture, isn't above becoming so concrete in our 
experience. As Foster wrote, to believe that God can sanctify and utilize the imagination is simply to take seriously the Christian idea of incarnation. 
And ultimately, it's been said, the goal of this way of prayer is not seeking answers or solutions to problems, nor is the goal of contemplation gaining 
new insights about God. The goal of contemplation is to fall ever more deeply in love with God. So gospel contemplation is the spiritual discipline 
involving the imagination. And that is potentially a point of concern for Wesley. In his defense against the accusations of him being an enthusiast, 
he provides this definition it is a sort of religious madness, a false imagination of being inspired by God and by enthusiast, one that fancies 
himself under the influence of the Holy Ghost, when in fact, he's not. And then Wesley adds, let him prove me guilty of this. Who can? Well, a false 
imagination is certainly problematic, but a sanctified imagination, one under the influence of the Holy Spirit, is part of experiencing God in all things. 
As one Jesuit writer explained, we might initially worry about going beyond the text of the Gospel. But if you've offered your time of prayer to God, begin 
by trusting that God is communicating with you. If you wonder if your imagining is going too far. Do some discernment with how you are praying. Where did 
your imagination lead you? Closer to God or farther away? Is your imagination bringing you constellation or desolation? And for whatever reason, John Wesley 
does not seem to practice or promote gospel contemplation. Yet it's been said that for Wesley, scripture is more than just informing doctrine. It is intended 
as a transformative impetus of the human affection. This transformative reading of Scripture in the Wesleyan tradition, it can be found in Wesley's Rules 
for the Reading of Scripture, which are part of his notes, his preface to the Old Testaments, and that is the handout that's been made available to 
you. So just as gospel contemplation is an encounter with God through the imagination, so to Wesley's approach with the reading of Scripture, his rules, 
his method, it is also an encounter with God. Then said that Wesley did not merely read Scripture. He listened to God personally, speaking to him 
in his pages. Scripture represented the living words of God. Concerning this directive for the reading of Scripture, Maholand writes John Wesley's 
guidelines for the reading of Scripture provide an excellent description of the posture necessary for our reading to become an encounter with the 
living, penetrating word of God. They move us from informational to formational level of reading, from the functional to the relational aspect of 
response to what we read, from the doing to the being mode of implementation of what we read. In particular, John Wesley's third point about Scripture, 
that one should read with a single eye to know the whole will of God and a fixed resolution to do it. When Mohalin calls that line the heart of the approach 
to Scripture in spiritual formation, the reading of Scripture informs not only spiritual formation, but leads to mission. Wesley ends his list of 
rules for the reading of Scripture with a call to prayer and self examination number six. It might also be of use if while we read, we were to 
frequently pause and examine ourselves by what we read, both with regard to our heart and our lives. So once more, reading of Scripture relates to 
spiritual formation, just as Jesuits are contemplatives in action. Well, Wesley, an examination accompanying Scripture prompts action because the 
rules conclude with a promise, and whatever light you then receive should be used to the uttermost, and that immediately. Let there be no delay. 
Whatever you resolve, begin to execute the first moment you can, so shall you find this word indeed to be the power of God unto present and eternal 
salvation. So in the Wesleyan tradition, the reading of Scripture is a means of grace. And Scripture reading is more than just an exercise to 
increase knowledge, but transformation of heart, prompting action and a change of life. If Ignatius of Loyola and John Wesley were in a conversation 
about Scripture and other matters, they would talk about mission and spiritual formation. Wesley would hear Ignatius explain gospel contemplation he 
would offer his own rules for the reading of Scripture. It would excite Ignatius of Loyola, who concluded a prayer of examine in his Spiritual Exercises. 
For Ignatius made a prayer of examine, a way to experience God, as well as a way to assess our behavior. He designed the daily examine to sustain and 
extend the experience. Ignatius wanted to help his people develop a reflective habit of mind constantly attuned to God's presence and responsive to God's. 
Leading the examine became the foundation for this graced awareness, and both John Wesley and Ignatius had this discipline in the Spiritual Exercise of 
examine. Ignatius put it into his spiritual exercises. In the Wesleyan context. The daily office, the support network of classes and bands would 
facilitate the examiner. The examine is part of reading Scripture. According to Wesley, that's part of integrating faith and practice. So Mohullin's 
summary on Wesley's rules for the reading of Scripture. He says the dynamics of these guidelines allow Scripture to become iconographic. Using these 
guidelines will draw us into those dimensions of chirotic existence through which God can transform our distorted word into the word God speaks us 
forth to be in the world. By this process, Scripture becomes a means of grace by which God shapes our lives. Ignatius of Loyola and John Wesley have 
different methods in the reading of Scripture, but their end is shared. The reading of Scripture is an opportunity to encounter God and be transformed 
for mission in the world. A lot of this research comes from part of my Doctor of Ministry thesis, chapter Four, and I go into some more detail with 
Wesley's approach to experiencing God that didn't have time to share in this paper. 

Thank you very much, Matthew. That was fascinating. I've often heard 
people say, sort of offhand, oh, there's parallels here between Ignatius and Wesley, but I've never had the time or never heard anyone go through it in 
this kind of a focused way. So that was very interesting. And as someone who's been involved in Catholic evangelical dialogue for a few years now, I want 
to share some of this with some of my colleagues as well, and hear what they have to say. So please, as we did in the earlier session, if you were there, 
if you have a question, I'd ask you to just put it in the chat, and I'll keep my eye on that and post some of those for Matthew, I guess. One question. 
You talked about this a little bit, but if you could say a little more, a lot of Protestants are going to be nervous about this idea, I guess. What sort of 
guardrails for this process in terms of how do you prevent someone from going totally off the deep end or correct or whatever in the midst of this 
process of imagining yourself in the Scripture? Thank you. Yes, because there are certainly pitfalls, one pitfall we have to guard our life and our 
doctrine closely so we hold to historic creed statements of faith. We hold the scripture. And if you're imagining is starting to introduce things that 
are inconsistent with God's revealed word, you've gone off the rails. There's a problem there, for sure. It could become highly divisive. Spiritual 
exercises are to nurture our relationship with God and our relationship with one another. But people could use it as a point of spiritual pride. I do 
this practice and elevate themselves, and it could cause division. If you see things one way and someone else sees things another way, you need to have 
that openness to one another. So I think there are potential pitfalls. Acknowledging those does not mean that it's forbidden, though. Yeah, of course.
We need one another to keep ourselves accountable. Yes. There are pitfalls in any form of spirituality. It's true. I wonder if one difference I'm 
thinking of is when we go back to Wesley, an early method of spirituality. There was a strong emphasis on experience, but it was experienced primarily 
framed in a communal sense and in a public sense, which is why testimony was so important. Right. That you share all the time. You're sharing what God's 
doing in your life, and then that becomes a way of continuing the dialogue. And for those in your small group, your closed circle, to share their feedback 
to you on what they're hearing you say, possibly correct or add insight. And so the idea of the experience, then, is a sort of public, collective kind of 
sense of learning, like we're in an apprentice in a guild sort of, rather than a sort of private, individual meditation approach. Is there something 
similar in the Ignatian tradition, or is it more of a one on one kind of the Ignatian tradition? The spiritual exercises were meant for a spiritual 
director, and the spiritual director is in a position of being seasoned and experienced and trained. So they're a wise mentor type position. I'm not 
aware of it happening in a small group or larger format, but I don't see why it could not be adapted into a small group curriculum. So that's important to 
say, though, that it's envisioned as done in a sort of mentoring. Well, I guess that's not quite the language that spiritual direction would use, but a 
guided exercise. Wesley himself says as much. When things confuse him, he'll consult those in his preface to the sermons on several occasions. He does 
consult those who are what's his wording? Knowledgeable and things of God. Yes. And I was also thinking of where he mentioned in those rules about let's see, 
what number was it? The analogy of faith? Number four. Right. In his Rules for reading Scripture, he talks about the analogy of faith. And for Wesley, that 
really is a sense of the big picture of Scripture. The whole grand narrative would be a more contemporary phrase. We might use sort of the overarching 
message of Scripture. And you have to have that grounding, you have to be sort of already sort of immersed in Scripture and have a good knowledge of the 
most important themes and developments, and then that allows you to explore, keep individual passages in perspective. And I did see Possibility of 
Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius in the hymns of Charles Wesley, but know that that's argued, and I haven't researched the hymns at all Charles sermon, 
Awake, Thou that Sleep does invite the congregation to see themselves as condemned, Peter past bound in chains. The night is at hand. So it's almost a 
gospel contemplation. It's coming from the Book of Acts. Well, I would say, yeah. I mean, I think the hymns are so chock full of scriptural 
images and analogies, and they shape people's spirituality even more so than the preaching, probably. And so if you have people who are immersing 
themselves in Scripture and in these hymns, which you're right, there's a lot of putting yourself in the story, and that's sort of shaping their 
spiritual imagination, as you could say, that they're picking up this biblical putting Biblical worldview. Or think of what wrestling Jacob, right? 
The great Charles Wesley hymn Wrestling Jacob, where you are imagining yourself as Jacob wrestling the angel who is Christ, and putting yourself in 
the story. And I was thinking about when you talked about indifference on the one side and then the Covenant Prayer, that was a great combination. 
A word that Wesley and Wesleyans would have used is resignation. That might be a parallel to indifference. And there is a book on Charles Wesley 
resignation and the sanctification theology of Charles Wesley, which you might be interested in. So, yeah, that might be helpful for you. But I was 
also wondering, how different is this from just a good sermon? Like, if you have a good sermon on a narrative about Jesus is going to involve 
people imagining the story. Right. It's going to tell the story. And as the story is being told in the sermon, everyone's imagining it. Right. 
Everyone is not in the same way. Maybe, but that might be helpful for us if we're thinking this is totally weird and we shouldn't do it. I've seen some 
comments in the chat, and James, you're on mute. My apologies. 

Dennis Chadwick has asked what is meant by the oracles of God number five on the handout. 
Do you want to tackle that? I take that to be just another way of describing Scripture. Consult God's commands to us. Yeah. One of the phrases Wesley 
used for Scripture, just meaning this is God's revelation, God's word to us, another word for Scripture in general. 

Does anyone else have any questions 
they want to pose for Matthew? Here's a question from Sean. How do cultural norms of today, for example, personal independence, present attention for 
Wesleyan context? Other than personal independence, what are the other personal value issues that create that tension in the faith community and the 
journey we share toward mission in the world. Sean, if you want to come on and pose your question or just say a little more about where you're going 
with that, you're welcome to wherever you are. Yeah. Just wondering, with regard to the value of independence and achieving and living in the world 
in a very independent way, which does present a tension, I think, within the Wesleyan context, how do we resolve that tension or create a healthy 
space in that tension to realize our call toward mission in the world? Very good question. One of my favorite themes for my congregation is the 
one another's. I hear the concern about independence. I also know there's a cultural concern for privacy. A lot of people want to separate home life 
or faith life. And I think for mission, it's all being authentic and being real and being present to one another. Not sure if that answers question. 
James, maybe you might have another perspective on that. No, it is a great question. And I guess just to say we are really swimming upstream against 
the current values and cultural norms of our context. Yes, that values are right. Independence, privacy, we're, religion. And this could connect to 
some of the things that Joel was saying this morning. Religion is seen as a private matter and people don't want to talk about it. And so, yeah, a 
lot of teaching, I think, and trying to find ways to move beyond that. But it's going to require, I think, deep relationships and building authentic 
community to get there. Nathan, Kwan, Wesley and Ignatius dealt with secularism in their own centuries, the unbelief of God. Do you think there is 
anything they taught we should be aware of when bring it to our society? So I guess their response to unbelief, their response to their context, which 
in some ways unbelief or nominal belief. Right. People who said they were Christians but didn't have a vibrant faith, do you have any thoughts, Matthew?
Well, trying to find a specific thing from a sermon of Wesley, perhaps, that addresses this and sermon kind of coming to mind is just the almost Christian. 
There are those who can go through the motions of faith and spirituality but lacking the faith and the trust in God. The Relationship with God the danger 
for the church is that we become products of our culture and our relationship with God is what will draw us closer to be formed in the image of Christ 
rather than formed in the image of our culture. Right. I think both Ignatius and Wesley address the secularism with the spiritual formation response.
Yeah, I think that's important. And I think a lot of the forms of evangelism that have dominated, certainly in the evangelical church in the last, say, 
since the 20th century, have been revivalistic and focused on the point of conversion and on decisions. And that, I think, presuppose a Christendom context 
where people already had a basic sort of frame of reference that. Was Christian or they assumed some similar beliefs. And so you could just build on that and 
scare them about hell and try to get them across the line, so to speak. But that wasn't the way that the 18th century certainly wasn't the way Wesley 
operated. So even though he was in a Christian in context, his focus was more on depth, right. And forming people, as you said, not just converting people, 
but putting them into community where they could be formed with one another in a deep way. And I think we need to move more towards that and away from 
the decisionistic kind of approaches that I don't think are going to work in our context anymore. 

Well, thank you, Matthew. It was a fascinating, 
fascinating paper, and I hope you've just taken a moment to look at the comments and see, because there's a lot of appreciative comments there.
So it's great that you've been able to share some of your insights from your own doctoral work, and I hope you continue to continue the dialogue and 
find people able to continue this conversation in the future.
Thank you very much. Thank you all.


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