Watson, James W. “Methodist Tentmakers: Learning from the Present, Dreaming about the Future.” Paper presented at the Annual Wesley Studies Symposium, Tyndale University, Toronto, Ontario, April 25, 2023. (MPEG-3, 27 min.) 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:02.820 Thanks you, James. 2 00:00:02.850 --> 00:00:07.900 I did wonder if for the sake of brevity I could shorten this to just meth tent 3 00:00:07.920 --> 00:00:11.060 makers but it kind of puts a Breaking Bad spin on the whole talk. 4 00:00:11.090 --> 00:00:13.700 So I don't think we'll do that. 5 00:00:13.730 --> 00:00:16.060 What we're wanting to do in this 6 00:00:16.080 --> 00:00:21.140 afternoon's presentation is kind of go through get you oriented to some of what 7 00:00:21.170 --> 00:00:25.940 we've heard from tent makers, some of the dialogue that's resulted from this. 8 00:00:25.970 --> 00:00:32.300 Every once in a while you're going to see this very subtly placed product placement. 9 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:37.860 I do have some of the tent maker books available if you are interested. 10 00:00:37.890 --> 00:00:40.240 But sort of the flow that I'm going to be 11 00:00:40.270 --> 00:00:45.060 drawing from in terms of information is we were involved in an interdenominational 12 00:00:45.090 --> 00:00:49.860 research project and from that research project we got some 13 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:54.580 reports out, some of which are available for free on the website there. 14 00:00:54.610 --> 00:00:56.740 And then a group of us sort of got 15 00:00:56.770 --> 00:00:59.100 together to collaborate on creating a book. 16 00:00:59.120 --> 00:01:01.180 And so it's a combination of reflection on 17 00:01:01.210 --> 00:01:07.100 the research and then also drawing on the stories of current tent makers. 18 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:08.960 We were able to draw upon a number of 19 00:01:08.990 --> 00:01:13.210 tyndale professors to write chapters as tent makers. 20 00:01:13.240 --> 00:01:15.050 The joke I heard was it's because 21 00:01:15.080 --> 00:01:18.770 Tyndale's pay is so low, everyone has to have another job as a pastor. 22 00:01:18.800 --> 00:01:20.290 Anyway. 23 00:01:20.320 --> 00:01:23.420 So here are the three questions that we 24 00:01:23.450 --> 00:01:26.540 tried to use to frame our research project. 25 00:01:26.570 --> 00:01:29.620 So this was a multi methods research project. 26 00:01:29.650 --> 00:01:35.560 We used some focus groups, literature review, then we talked to a number of tent 27 00:01:35.590 --> 00:01:41.620 makers and then we also had a quantitative component with pastoral psychologist Dr. 28 00:01:41.650 --> 00:01:44.260 Wanda Malcolm at Wycliffe College. 29 00:01:44.290 --> 00:01:47.210 So the three questions we use to frame the 30 00:01:47.240 --> 00:01:52.620 overall research project are what are the key features of the diverse expressions of 31 00:01:52.650 --> 00:01:58.700 bivocational ministry in Canada trying to surface what's going on here? 32 00:01:58.730 --> 00:02:03.900 What are significant biblical theological emphasis to consider and how can promotion 33 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:07.020 of the opportunities and resourcing of the challenges take place? 34 00:02:07.050 --> 00:02:12.730 Strategically, we are using a community based research approach. 35 00:02:12.760 --> 00:02:15.660 So sort of we're thinking about three phases. 36 00:02:15.690 --> 00:02:20.100 You have the regular kind of research of getting information, 37 00:02:20.130 --> 00:02:26.580 the knowledge generation phase and then you have the knowledge mobilization phase 38 00:02:26.600 --> 00:02:28.890 where you start sharing with people here's what we learned. 39 00:02:28.920 --> 00:02:31.610 And then you have community mobilization, right? 40 00:02:31.640 --> 00:02:34.100 So we drew upon people like myself who 41 00:02:34.130 --> 00:02:38.700 have previous experience as tent makers and also people who are currently tent 42 00:02:38.730 --> 00:02:43.960 makers to speak into the design to be part of framing the questions. 43 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:50.940 But the end result is we actually want some kind of mobilization taking place. 44 00:02:50.970 --> 00:02:54.380 How can we better help people who are 45 00:02:54.410 --> 00:02:58.700 balancing both congregational leadership and other work? 46 00:02:58.730 --> 00:03:01.300 How can we engage people meaningfully in 47 00:03:01.330 --> 00:03:07.500 the discernment of is this the right path forward for you as you pursue your calling 48 00:03:07.530 --> 00:03:11.320 and what does that mean for us as a church at large? 49 00:03:11.480 --> 00:03:15.610 So you folks are coming in on the community mobilization phase. 50 00:03:15.640 --> 00:03:20.020 I'm seeing you folks as some of the participants and the workers here. 51 00:03:20.050 --> 00:03:22.740 And that's where I want to reach in this conversation. 52 00:03:22.770 --> 00:03:24.220 So I'm going to talk fast. 53 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:26.060 For those of you who are my Salvation Army 54 00:03:26.090 --> 00:03:28.940 employees, you haven't often been exposed to fast talking. 55 00:03:28.970 --> 00:03:34.420 James, you may never want to be again, but talk fast through the presentation. 56 00:03:34.450 --> 00:03:38.610 Just to get you guys prepped so we can have some conversation at the end, 57 00:03:38.640 --> 00:03:44.700 I put up the COVID page for our larger research report. 58 00:03:44.730 --> 00:03:46.740 There's a lot of people on here. 59 00:03:46.760 --> 00:03:48.740 This is just a fraction of the number of 60 00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:53.220 people from the different denominations, parachurches who participate in helping 61 00:03:53.250 --> 00:03:57.500 inform us, help things happen for any of the Free Methodists in the crowd. 62 00:03:57.530 --> 00:04:00.740 I do have to underline Amy Bratton's name. 63 00:04:00.770 --> 00:04:04.380 Amy has been like our administrative quarterback. 64 00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:08.060 She's really been the centerpiece of making everything, everything go forward. 65 00:04:08.090 --> 00:04:11.700 If you know Amy, you understand why that would be possible. 66 00:04:11.730 --> 00:04:16.000 But we had a number of partners involved. 67 00:04:16.280 --> 00:04:18.300 So who did we talk to? 68 00:04:18.330 --> 00:04:25.260 We talked to 16 women, 24 men from a bunch of different provinces. 69 00:04:25.280 --> 00:04:30.640 We talked to people who self identified in their congregational role as being like, a 70 00:04:30.660 --> 00:04:35.180 leader, solo pastor, or an associate pastor. 71 00:04:35.210 --> 00:04:37.060 People who are specialists. 72 00:04:37.080 --> 00:04:38.980 So someone who is, for example, a youth 73 00:04:39.010 --> 00:04:42.740 pastor and a multistaff team church planters. 74 00:04:42.770 --> 00:04:46.780 We had a number of church planters in our interviews. 75 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:51.620 Copastors, so often that was spouses that they are 76 00:04:51.650 --> 00:04:55.860 pastoring together and volunteer ministers. 77 00:04:55.890 --> 00:04:58.980 So people are getting no pay from the church. 78 00:04:59.010 --> 00:05:02.180 About 20% were born outside of Canada. 79 00:05:02.210 --> 00:05:05.060 So that's approximating Canadian national averages. 80 00:05:05.080 --> 00:05:08.860 I know that feels low for those of you in the GTA, but that's sort of the national. 81 00:05:08.890 --> 00:05:11.660 And about half of them were free. 82 00:05:11.690 --> 00:05:14.000 Methodists or salvationists? So there we go. 83 00:05:14.030 --> 00:05:16.880 That's our wesleyan content. 84 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.940 So some of these people we're talking to, 85 00:05:20.970 --> 00:05:24.980 when they describe their congregation, we really didn't apply a filter. 86 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:27.660 Like to ask them, are you a big church? Are you small church? 87 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:31.340 But as they're sharing their story, you start to realize some of them were small 88 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:34.420 enough that we might call them just an incarnational ministry. 89 00:05:34.450 --> 00:05:39.500 Like, my wife and I invite people from our apartment building into our apartment. 90 00:05:39.520 --> 00:05:41.260 We're trying to make our apartment in this 91 00:05:41.290 --> 00:05:44.740 building the community center, the community hub, right? 92 00:05:44.770 --> 00:05:46.100 That kind of an entity. 93 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:47.780 And then we had some people who said, 94 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:52.480 yeah, they're part of a multistaff team at a congregation. 95 00:05:52.840 --> 00:05:59.220 We had a mix of urban and rural churches in the study. 96 00:05:59.250 --> 00:06:02.300 What are key features of the diverse expressions? 97 00:06:02.330 --> 00:06:08.300 So when we were asking people, who do you know? 98 00:06:08.330 --> 00:06:10.960 Who's a tent maker? 99 00:06:11.200 --> 00:06:13.100 It was an awkward question of Salvation 100 00:06:13.130 --> 00:06:17.580 Army because the whole tent maker bivocational doesn't resonate. 101 00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:21.420 We had to talk about multirole. 102 00:06:21.440 --> 00:06:24.680 If you're managing a thrift store and you're also, functionally the pastor of 103 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:28.060 your congregation and you're also providing a food bank for your community, 104 00:06:28.080 --> 00:06:30.380 other denominations consider that more than one job. 105 00:06:30.400 --> 00:06:31.460 But in the Salvation Army. 106 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:32.580 There's sort of a theology around. 107 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:34.440 Well, we're called to the community and do 108 00:06:34.470 --> 00:06:37.860 whatever right, so we had to adjust the language a little bit. 109 00:06:37.890 --> 00:06:40.180 But as we were hunting for people, we were 110 00:06:40.210 --> 00:06:43.540 looking for people who had a diversity of tasks. 111 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:47.580 We knew we weren't in this study going to be able to be representative and do sort 112 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:50.540 of a sample of everybody in Canada who's involved. 113 00:06:50.570 --> 00:06:52.740 But we tried to find people who had 114 00:06:52.770 --> 00:06:59.080 diverse combinations of congregational leadership and other work. 115 00:06:59.960 --> 00:07:02.260 So what did they do? 116 00:07:02.290 --> 00:07:04.060 There are 44 different roles. 117 00:07:04.080 --> 00:07:05.540 Those of you who are good at math. 118 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:07.580 If we interviewed 40 people and there's 44 119 00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:11.580 roles, we had to shift the language partway 120 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:15.180 through the study from bivocational to multivocational. 121 00:07:15.210 --> 00:07:20.540 Some of our people were identifying they had like more than one other side gig 122 00:07:20.570 --> 00:07:26.760 or sometimes their church was one of the multiple side gigs that they had. 123 00:07:28.080 --> 00:07:31.420 I tried to, for Brevity's sake, kind of 124 00:07:31.450 --> 00:07:34.900 categorize some of the roles that we heard. 125 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:40.820 This is just a rough categorization, but some of the work they were doing was 126 00:07:40.850 --> 00:07:45.060 stuff that we might recognize in one way or another as ministry. 127 00:07:45.080 --> 00:07:45.460 Right. 128 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:49.940 One person was an editor for their denominational Sunday school material. 129 00:07:49.970 --> 00:07:53.840 We had a variety of different chaplains. 130 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.180 Someone was a coach for church planters and their denomination. 131 00:07:58.210 --> 00:08:02.120 But it was like a fraction of their time in a week. 132 00:08:02.400 --> 00:08:07.220 The funeral and wedding officials were not doing that for a church. 133 00:08:07.250 --> 00:08:09.820 They were doing that for a business. 134 00:08:09.850 --> 00:08:13.100 The funeral official said, yeah, I'm on a 24 hours call. 135 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:17.060 Funeral home contacts me and I have to decide right away, can I take this funeral 136 00:08:17.090 --> 00:08:20.860 from someone in the community or do they need to call somebody else? 137 00:08:20.890 --> 00:08:25.880 The wedding official had set up their own company to do weddings. 138 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:31.460 Here's an example of the week of one of our tent makers. 139 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:37.700 So this person is a business analyst by day and pastor by night. 140 00:08:37.730 --> 00:08:44.100 So they share preaching with someone else 141 00:08:44.130 --> 00:08:48.940 who actually serves multiple churches in their network of churches. 142 00:08:48.970 --> 00:08:51.580 They're one of those churches that always has food. 143 00:08:51.610 --> 00:08:53.220 You might want to go there. 144 00:08:53.250 --> 00:09:00.380 And the day pre COVID started with a 05:00 a.m. Wake 145 00:09:00.410 --> 00:09:04.940 up in order to be able to do the 1 hour commute. 146 00:09:04.970 --> 00:09:11.060 So they said, yeah, sometimes I can study during my break time in the evenings. 147 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:14.580 This lighter pink is sort of it depends on 148 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:16.120 the week as to whether or not they're doing this. 149 00:09:16.150 --> 00:09:19.620 But it could be home visitation or it could be permitting. 150 00:09:19.650 --> 00:09:20.500 Wednesday nights. 151 00:09:20.520 --> 00:09:22.380 We're always committed to mentoring or permitting. 152 00:09:22.410 --> 00:09:27.340 This is a church that invests heavily in mentoring of other leaders. 153 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:28.860 You might want to take note of that when 154 00:09:28.890 --> 00:09:32.980 we start talking about what can congregations be doing. 155 00:09:33.010 --> 00:09:35.780 Light tank here, home visitation and the 156 00:09:35.800 --> 00:09:38.820 Friday evenings, as always, youth they're prayer meeting Saturday. 157 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:40.940 They didn't want to tell me what they're doing. 158 00:09:40.970 --> 00:09:44.680 I'm hoping they're taking some time for themselves. 159 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.460 This example, the person 160 00:09:48.490 --> 00:09:53.260 is a chaplain, but they're in a rural area and they do 161 00:09:53.290 --> 00:09:55.900 chaplaincy on Monday at the Regional Health Center. 162 00:09:55.930 --> 00:09:58.420 They go into a hospital and they meet with people. 163 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:00.300 Tuesday morning they're doing telehealth 164 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:04.440 chaplaincy, which I didn't know was a thing 165 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:09.860 then you can see they're doing church stuff in the afternoon at the office. 166 00:10:09.890 --> 00:10:12.140 They're in at the church office on Wednesday. 167 00:10:12.170 --> 00:10:15.140 On Thursday they have prayer meeting and church office work. 168 00:10:15.170 --> 00:10:17.380 And Friday they actually would do mobile 169 00:10:17.410 --> 00:10:22.220 palliative care where they drive to the person's house and offer chaplaincy to 170 00:10:22.250 --> 00:10:26.260 them in their own home as they're sort of in palliative care. 171 00:10:26.290 --> 00:10:31.120 And Saturday they reserve for hanging out with their kids. 172 00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:34.860 This particular individual, 173 00:10:34.890 --> 00:10:40.460 they start at 445 in the morning with their devotions and go to the gym. 174 00:10:40.490 --> 00:10:42.460 They're very disciplined people. 175 00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:45.340 It's almost like they work for an army. 176 00:10:45.370 --> 00:10:49.700 08:00 a.m to 08:00 a.m to 09:00 a.m. They go to the gym 177 00:10:49.730 --> 00:10:53.940 and then they're doing social service stuff for the rest of the day. 178 00:10:53.970 --> 00:10:58.520 Tuesday they're doing some social service stuff, but because it's an integrated kind 179 00:10:58.550 --> 00:11:01.400 of facility, they can do Bible study as part of that. 180 00:11:01.430 --> 00:11:03.300 They have chapel. 181 00:11:03.330 --> 00:11:08.060 Wednesday is their day off, but they're doing a master's degree. 182 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:10.260 And so part of their day off, their 183 00:11:10.290 --> 00:11:13.780 recreational activity is getting papers written. 184 00:11:13.810 --> 00:11:18.700 And then in the Wednesday and Friday evenings they're doing community meals. 185 00:11:18.730 --> 00:11:22.020 Thursday intercession, they have a bunch more. 186 00:11:22.050 --> 00:11:25.740 There's a very multifaceted social service 187 00:11:25.770 --> 00:11:28.860 work that they were providing within their city. 188 00:11:28.890 --> 00:11:31.060 And then on Saturday they might have a 189 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:34.200 men's or women's group and some visitation. 190 00:11:36.800 --> 00:11:43.740 So this one, everything is light colored because they said there is no pattern. 191 00:11:43.770 --> 00:11:46.500 My week flexes from week to week. 192 00:11:46.530 --> 00:11:50.680 They said, usually in the morning I'm working as a freelance marketer and I make 193 00:11:50.710 --> 00:11:54.880 a ton of money so I can do whatever I want with the rest of my day. 194 00:11:55.080 --> 00:12:00.080 So everyone's googling now, freelance marketing, how do I get into it? 195 00:12:00.520 --> 00:12:05.580 So they were part of a Christian community and they said, yes, sometimes we might go 196 00:12:05.610 --> 00:12:09.580 out to a community art thing and then we'll get together and reflect on what we 197 00:12:09.610 --> 00:12:14.000 experienced, or we might hold a dance, or we might like these were the kinds of 198 00:12:14.030 --> 00:12:17.420 spiritual activities they're organizing for their small community. 199 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.560 And in the evenings they said, yeah, that's usually time where we can sort of 200 00:12:20.580 --> 00:12:23.340 prep, keep the community together, keep things flowing. 201 00:12:23.370 --> 00:12:30.000 And they had a co colleague who was doing this leadership with them. 202 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.580 So if I could make two observations to you. 203 00:12:33.610 --> 00:12:37.500 A lot of the people were highly, highly structured in their week. 204 00:12:37.520 --> 00:12:39.380 Like, this day, I'm doing this for this 205 00:12:39.400 --> 00:12:41.860 many hours, this day I'm doing this for this many hours. 206 00:12:41.890 --> 00:12:46.360 And then there's a few people who they had worked things out in such a way that they 207 00:12:46.390 --> 00:12:50.880 had a high degree of flexibility in their week. 208 00:12:52.160 --> 00:12:54.420 So we partnered with the Wellness Project 209 00:12:54.450 --> 00:13:02.860 at Wycliffe and what they found as they invited the multivocational folks to 210 00:13:02.890 --> 00:13:06.500 participate in their diagnostic survey around wellness. 211 00:13:06.530 --> 00:13:10.940 So how close are you as a minister to burnout? 212 00:13:10.970 --> 00:13:13.960 They found that the aspects that they 213 00:13:13.990 --> 00:13:18.460 found were significant to people there's a ghost. 214 00:13:18.490 --> 00:13:20.260 Here we go. 215 00:13:20.290 --> 00:13:25.300 Were cultivating personal spiritual depth, vocation and calling, 216 00:13:25.330 --> 00:13:29.740 building work relationships and trust and time and diversity of tasks. 217 00:13:29.770 --> 00:13:34.340 Interestingly, if you read the research report, the time and diversity tasks also 218 00:13:34.370 --> 00:13:39.180 showed up as one of the negative aspects the challenge of organizing things, 219 00:13:39.210 --> 00:13:42.320 scheduling things, keeping things on track. 220 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:51.520 For the book, wanda, Bethanne and Alvira did a statistical comparative study of the 221 00:13:51.550 --> 00:13:54.620 sample they already had of univocational ministers. 222 00:13:54.650 --> 00:13:59.660 So people who say, yeah, my main thing is I'm the minister, preacher, pastor, 223 00:13:59.690 --> 00:14:04.860 whatever, and compared that with the findings from our multivocational group. 224 00:14:04.890 --> 00:14:09.740 And so if you actually read that chapter in the book, you have to take the mindset 225 00:14:09.770 --> 00:14:14.280 of some kind of procedural detective drama where they're trying to figure out, well, 226 00:14:14.310 --> 00:14:19.380 what is the difference between being multivocational and univocational? 227 00:14:19.410 --> 00:14:22.660 Well, imagine a 228 00:14:22.690 --> 00:14:27.860 procedural drama that actually expected you to not get tired of math. 229 00:14:27.880 --> 00:14:28.100 Okay? 230 00:14:28.130 --> 00:14:30.940 That's more like what that chapter is like. 231 00:14:30.970 --> 00:14:33.200 And the spoiler alert is, at the end, they 232 00:14:33.230 --> 00:14:37.740 said, we don't see a statistically significant difference 233 00:14:37.770 --> 00:14:42.400 between univocational and multivocational people on wellness. 234 00:14:43.040 --> 00:14:48.360 So it's not like if you have more than one job, you're necessarily closer to burnout. 235 00:14:49.760 --> 00:14:54.060 For me, I believe that raises a lot of interesting questions. 236 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:57.500 Are there people who are drawn towards 237 00:14:57.530 --> 00:14:59.940 needing multiple things on the go all the time? 238 00:14:59.970 --> 00:15:02.460 A couple of our interviewees said that was true. 239 00:15:02.490 --> 00:15:07.820 One guy said, yeah, my mind actually slows down when I'm in crisis mode. 240 00:15:07.850 --> 00:15:10.060 He said, I was in a business call and the 241 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.580 snow caved in my roof while I was on the call. 242 00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:15.680 I finished the call, and at the end I laughed and I said, oh, yeah, now I have 243 00:15:15.680 --> 00:15:17.660 to go deal with the fact that my roof is caved in. 244 00:15:17.680 --> 00:15:19.140 And the other people and my other 245 00:15:19.160 --> 00:15:22.420 coworkers in the call were saying, what, you didn't stop everything? 246 00:15:22.450 --> 00:15:23.700 No, that's fine. 247 00:15:23.730 --> 00:15:27.180 But this was an individual who claimed that. 248 00:15:27.210 --> 00:15:31.280 And when he went through his week, I believe the numbers kind of work out of 249 00:15:31.310 --> 00:15:34.980 saying, yeah, I work 100 hours a week, but this is okay. 250 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:36.100 This is how I'm wired. 251 00:15:36.130 --> 00:15:38.220 It's kind of the way they describe that. 252 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:40.300 I don't think that was true of everyone in the study. 253 00:15:40.330 --> 00:15:43.380 I think that person was probably an outlier. 254 00:15:43.410 --> 00:15:45.860 But we hope 255 00:15:45.890 --> 00:15:49.740 there's someone who cares about pastor's well being who's laughing right now. 256 00:15:49.770 --> 00:15:54.060 But it does raise interesting questions. 257 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:59.580 Are certain people drawn to the diversity of tasks? 258 00:15:59.610 --> 00:16:01.700 And do they enjoy having these different 259 00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:05.680 work environments where they get to build relationships? 260 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.300 So I'm not going to get into all the biblical theological things. 261 00:16:11.330 --> 00:16:16.260 And we didn't try to separate the salvationists and free Methodists from the 262 00:16:16.290 --> 00:16:20.420 rest of the group to figure out this out, but I'm going to just lay a few in front 263 00:16:20.450 --> 00:16:24.920 of you just to sort of spark some conversation. 264 00:16:25.040 --> 00:16:28.020 So here's a quote from someone about calling. 265 00:16:28.040 --> 00:16:29.880 Well, one of the first things I would want 266 00:16:29.910 --> 00:16:34.340 to say is that bivocational ministry is something that will only work if you have 267 00:16:34.370 --> 00:16:38.980 a very clear sense of call to the demands that you'll face. 268 00:16:39.010 --> 00:16:44.460 Because there is seasons and moments where bivocational trivocational work. 269 00:16:44.490 --> 00:16:46.700 You're exhausted, you're depleted. 270 00:16:46.730 --> 00:16:49.140 And it's that sense of calling that you 271 00:16:49.170 --> 00:16:54.620 rely on the trust that God by Spirit is going to enable you and empower you and 272 00:16:54.650 --> 00:17:00.220 that this is your reasonable act of service and love for God and for Jesus. 273 00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:02.460 So just take a moment and think about how 274 00:17:02.490 --> 00:17:06.530 many situations you've been in where you've gone deep in exploring with someone 275 00:17:06.560 --> 00:17:09.570 what their calling is and what that means for them. 276 00:17:09.600 --> 00:17:11.810 Is that something that we need to for 277 00:17:11.840 --> 00:17:15.460 those of us who do mentor, for those of us who do train, for those of us who do 278 00:17:15.490 --> 00:17:19.530 encourage, is that something we need to sort of bring into the conversation? 279 00:17:19.560 --> 00:17:21.880 Every once in a while? 280 00:17:24.360 --> 00:17:28.680 We asked them a specific question what is your theology of work? 281 00:17:32.040 --> 00:17:37.740 One of the interviewees was very brief, said it's it's all spiritual. 282 00:17:37.770 --> 00:17:42.160 All the stuff that I'm doing through my week is spiritual. 283 00:17:44.800 --> 00:17:46.090 That's one response. 284 00:17:46.120 --> 00:17:47.740 Here's another response. 285 00:17:47.760 --> 00:17:50.010 This person said, oh yeah, I just preached on that. 286 00:17:50.040 --> 00:17:53.010 So this was like the pop quiz they were already prepared for. 287 00:17:53.040 --> 00:17:55.160 So I think doing your work as unto the 288 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:58.570 Lord as the Scripture would encourage us to do is really we are faced with that 289 00:17:58.600 --> 00:18:01.740 daily and then also understanding that people watch, right? 290 00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:03.740 People knowing the pastor, the minister, 291 00:18:03.770 --> 00:18:08.120 they're watching how they respond to things and how I treat people and how I 292 00:18:08.150 --> 00:18:12.980 treat customers and how I speak to managers, how I deal with challenges. 293 00:18:13.010 --> 00:18:15.620 It's just daily life. 294 00:18:15.650 --> 00:18:20.160 Another interview, he said, and this is sort of switching this a 295 00:18:20.190 --> 00:18:25.180 little bit like where does theology arise within your other work? 296 00:18:25.210 --> 00:18:27.140 He said, What I've learned in my 297 00:18:27.170 --> 00:18:30.460 agricultural career informs my church ministry. 298 00:18:30.490 --> 00:18:34.530 Like, there are things I've learned agricultural and farming that are really 299 00:18:34.560 --> 00:18:39.220 quite vital for me and I'm a better pastor because I do this other stuff. 300 00:18:39.250 --> 00:18:41.740 And also, on the other hand, my church 301 00:18:41.770 --> 00:18:44.860 ministry informs my farming and so they mesh. 302 00:18:44.890 --> 00:18:47.770 And I think both careers are richer because of that. 303 00:18:47.800 --> 00:18:50.290 Many of my sermon topics have come from my 304 00:18:50.320 --> 00:18:55.770 agricultural experience and they're contemplated on the tractor seat. 305 00:18:55.800 --> 00:18:57.860 For the record, there's like one farmer 306 00:18:57.890 --> 00:19:02.570 out of the 40, but this is a very you can imagine this 307 00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:07.240 kind of reflection taking place for other forms of work. 308 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.140 So as we think about 309 00:19:11.170 --> 00:19:16.620 how can we engage folks around the opportunities and resourcing the 310 00:19:16.650 --> 00:19:21.330 challenges, I think one of the things we could consider and I've actually done this 311 00:19:21.360 --> 00:19:28.940 in my conversation with planters, with core planters or church planters 312 00:19:28.970 --> 00:19:36.220 is to ask them, well, these different parts of your life, are they integrated? 313 00:19:36.250 --> 00:19:41.290 Or is there a way in which the other work you do sort of complements? 314 00:19:41.320 --> 00:19:43.180 It gives you a break from pastoral 315 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:45.720 ministry, it gives you something different that you do. 316 00:19:45.750 --> 00:19:48.740 It helps you engage in a different way. 317 00:19:48.770 --> 00:19:51.620 Is it just the money? Right? 318 00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:55.660 So you're doing other work because it brings in some income and addresses 319 00:19:55.690 --> 00:19:59.620 financial sustainability issues for your ministry or church? 320 00:19:59.650 --> 00:20:01.900 Or are you feeling like there's some 321 00:20:01.930 --> 00:20:05.530 tension that these pieces aren't working well together? 322 00:20:05.560 --> 00:20:10.720 And then what do we need to talk about in terms of sorting that out? 323 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:13.660 We sort of anticipated that 324 00:20:13.690 --> 00:20:18.290 I do this other work for money conversation would come up, and it did. 325 00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:23.220 There was a few people who said, yeah, I took on the school bus driving job 326 00:20:23.250 --> 00:20:27.010 in order to do my doctorate ministry and to pay for tuition. 327 00:20:27.040 --> 00:20:28.900 But now that I'm done that, I'm expecting 328 00:20:28.930 --> 00:20:33.900 I'll get a full time pastoral position and I'm going to leave that behind. 329 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.380 There's another individual said, yeah, I'm planting the church right now. 330 00:20:37.410 --> 00:20:39.320 And so I'm working as a chaplain in 331 00:20:39.350 --> 00:20:42.700 industry and also driving a truck for deliveries. 332 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:45.940 And I know that as the church plant grows, it's going to demand more of my time, 333 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:49.290 there's going to be more tithes, and so I'm going to leave the trucking job. 334 00:20:49.320 --> 00:20:54.220 But they said, But I'm not going to ever stop being a chaplain in 335 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.530 that industry because my dad worked in that industry. 336 00:20:56.560 --> 00:21:00.570 And I know there's people who work there who are never going to hear the gospel 337 00:21:00.600 --> 00:21:04.460 unless someone's meeting with them on their own terms. 338 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:04.860 Right? 339 00:21:04.890 --> 00:21:09.810 So for that individual, they saw sort of a complementary and integrated thing. 340 00:21:09.840 --> 00:21:12.620 It upheld their family tradition in that 341 00:21:12.650 --> 00:21:16.940 industry, and it also gave them an opportunity to connect with people that 342 00:21:16.970 --> 00:21:22.520 they wouldn't necessarily be able to just with their identity of pastor. 343 00:21:26.360 --> 00:21:30.500 One of the other things that came up when we asked about what kind of training or 344 00:21:30.530 --> 00:21:37.250 resources would you recommend, one of the responses I received from 345 00:21:37.280 --> 00:21:42.810 someone who's very articulate was, you know, my Bible interpretation and social 346 00:21:42.840 --> 00:21:47.530 context interpretation from Bible college actually helps me every day. 347 00:21:47.560 --> 00:21:49.280 So they sort of emphasize some of those 348 00:21:49.310 --> 00:21:51.620 things that we consider typically foundational. 349 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:53.050 You'll find that most ministry training 350 00:21:53.080 --> 00:21:58.220 programs, but others said, I wish someone would have offered 351 00:21:58.250 --> 00:22:02.680 something on how do you start another career outside of ministry or how do you 352 00:22:02.710 --> 00:22:06.330 do budgeting, how do you talk about finances with your spouse? 353 00:22:06.360 --> 00:22:12.360 There's some very sort of general life skills kinds of things that came up. 354 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:14.620 We didn't get into a lot of discussion of, 355 00:22:14.650 --> 00:22:20.960 do you wish that your ministry training had been paired with your other career? 356 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:26.330 Ironically, before this book ever was published, 357 00:22:26.360 --> 00:22:31.700 my son decided that he would start and master divinity online. 358 00:22:31.730 --> 00:22:34.940 And he's also going to do his his graduate 359 00:22:34.970 --> 00:22:38.660 education degree in England where he and my daughter in law are living. 360 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:42.600 And so I realized, oh, my son actually has already started doing this, trying to 361 00:22:42.630 --> 00:22:47.240 integrate both so that he can be a pastor who also teaches. 362 00:22:47.520 --> 00:22:51.880 So there's kind of some options there we could talk about. 363 00:22:54.320 --> 00:23:01.280 Here's my currently favorite overdeveloped and overly complicated diagram. 364 00:23:01.520 --> 00:23:04.500 So if you think about Pedagogy being you 365 00:23:04.520 --> 00:23:07.620 giving information to someone who doesn't know what they need to know. 366 00:23:07.650 --> 00:23:10.740 And if you think about andragogi as being 367 00:23:10.770 --> 00:23:15.140 the learner actually gets to participate in shaping what it is they need to learn. 368 00:23:15.170 --> 00:23:19.860 And you think about Hudagogi, which comes from sort of the idea of self learner that 369 00:23:19.890 --> 00:23:23.380 they actually get to design what it is that they need to learn. 370 00:23:23.410 --> 00:23:27.380 They get to actually create their own educational program. 371 00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:32.620 Where does that fit for us in our academic? 372 00:23:32.650 --> 00:23:36.720 Like when we're thinking about what systems do we need in place, what kinds of 373 00:23:36.750 --> 00:23:41.660 supports, what kind of environment do we need to be encouraging people to pursue to 374 00:23:41.690 --> 00:23:45.780 find their right need for training or development? 375 00:23:45.810 --> 00:23:51.140 Here are some of the ideas that I tried to draw forward from those discussions and 376 00:23:51.170 --> 00:23:54.090 from some of the presentations I've been doing. 377 00:23:54.120 --> 00:23:58.380 So we think about someone may ask for specific things. 378 00:23:58.410 --> 00:24:02.360 Do we as friends or as pastors or as 379 00:24:02.390 --> 00:24:07.680 denominational staff have access to helping direct them into things that are 380 00:24:07.710 --> 00:24:11.560 going to help them develop in the areas that they've identified? 381 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:14.330 When we know we have people who have 382 00:24:14.360 --> 00:24:19.570 capacity to both be the leader of a congregation and also have another career, 383 00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:27.570 do we have ways to set up, facilitate, possibly fund, I don't know, 384 00:24:27.600 --> 00:24:33.660 some of the specific skills they'll need to develop in the future? 385 00:24:33.690 --> 00:24:35.980 We do some of this right for ministry. 386 00:24:36.010 --> 00:24:42.050 On the ministry side of the equation, we try to provide some training for people 387 00:24:42.080 --> 00:24:47.140 who are entering into ministry and may need some skill development to help them 388 00:24:47.170 --> 00:24:51.640 that are there ways that we can expand that? 389 00:24:51.800 --> 00:24:53.380 Continuing education. 390 00:24:53.410 --> 00:24:56.700 Probably most of us do something in continuing education. 391 00:24:56.730 --> 00:25:00.460 What are the kinds of themes, subjects we could address? 392 00:25:00.490 --> 00:25:03.900 One of the items that was identified that 393 00:25:03.930 --> 00:25:06.540 I found interesting was this idea of team leadership. 394 00:25:06.560 --> 00:25:08.320 Team leadership, you need to do that in 395 00:25:08.350 --> 00:25:11.260 congregational settings, but probably most workplaces. 396 00:25:11.290 --> 00:25:14.860 That's a valuable skill for you to develop. 397 00:25:14.890 --> 00:25:17.120 On the Hudagogi side, like how does 398 00:25:17.120 --> 00:25:19.900 someone actually participate in designing their own experience? 399 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:21.440 Currently in the Salvation Army, we're 400 00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:25.180 experimenting with communities of practice and so we actually have like a little 401 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:27.020 learning contract that the group will form. 402 00:25:27.050 --> 00:25:29.420 Here's what we want to focus on for this time. 403 00:25:29.450 --> 00:25:31.900 Here's what we want to learn about together. 404 00:25:31.930 --> 00:25:34.040 So there are some possibilities and I'd be 405 00:25:34.070 --> 00:25:37.700 excited to hear what you folks have to say. 406 00:25:37.730 --> 00:25:40.740 James Pedler raises the brilliant 407 00:25:40.770 --> 00:25:44.040 theological imperative that's contractually obligated to include 408 00:25:44.070 --> 00:25:49.260 brilliant, that multivocational should be normalized across all walks of life for 409 00:25:49.290 --> 00:25:53.540 Christians, that the various vocations we are committed to should be recognized as 410 00:25:53.570 --> 00:25:57.330 contributing to human flourishing and or building up the church. 411 00:25:57.360 --> 00:26:04.540 So to what degree can we actually find ways in which to affirm to normalize? 412 00:26:04.570 --> 00:26:06.880 Wherever you're working, God is already at 413 00:26:06.910 --> 00:26:10.000 work and Jesus has something for you to do. 414 00:26:10.030 --> 00:26:16.640 There in the book, there's chapters where Ashur 415 00:26:16.670 --> 00:26:21.240 Yusuf and who's a professor here at Tyndale and Cam Roxborough who's the 416 00:26:21.270 --> 00:26:24.980 director of Forge Canada both describe their journey. 417 00:26:25.010 --> 00:26:29.050 And both of them say that their congregations were designed 418 00:26:29.080 --> 00:26:33.780 with the intent that everyone who's part of that congregation recognizes that God 419 00:26:33.810 --> 00:26:37.050 has stuff for them to do through the rest of the week. 420 00:26:37.080 --> 00:26:40.330 And so the only reason that they have tent 421 00:26:40.360 --> 00:26:46.160 makers as pastors is because they need to be modeling that as leaders so that the 422 00:26:46.190 --> 00:26:51.160 whole congregation understands that this as feasible and normal as Christians.