WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:01.940 My name is Stephen Bedard, and it's an 2 00:00:01.970 --> 00:00:07.680 honor to be here to be able to share with you this afternoon, as I've been sitting 3 00:00:07.710 --> 00:00:12.240 in the different sessions and sitting at lunch, been listening to some of the 4 00:00:12.270 --> 00:00:16.900 conversation that goes on, and people all trying to gauge who is from where. 5 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:18.740 Are you a wesleyan? 6 00:00:18.760 --> 00:00:20.340 Are you a Pentecostal? 7 00:00:20.360 --> 00:00:22.700 And people are trying to figure these things out. 8 00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:26.060 Well, I come to you as a back Baptist. 9 00:00:26.080 --> 00:00:27.420 I don't know how I got in there. 10 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:29.340 Maybe it's because it's Gary Nelson's, a Baptist. 11 00:00:29.370 --> 00:00:31.820 That's probably there you go. 12 00:00:31.850 --> 00:00:35.060 So in some ways, it's an interesting 13 00:00:35.090 --> 00:00:40.020 subject for me to look at, although I am not totally divorced from this setting in 14 00:00:40.050 --> 00:00:43.700 that, like John Wesley, I was raised Anglican. 15 00:00:43.720 --> 00:00:45.060 That was a big part of my life. 16 00:00:45.090 --> 00:00:48.180 I spent over 20 years in the Anglican 17 00:00:48.210 --> 00:00:51.540 Church and went from the Anglican Church to the Pentecostal Church. 18 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:53.420 So was baptized in the Pentecostal Church. 19 00:00:53.450 --> 00:00:56.980 And so I have a great love for Pentecostalism as well. 20 00:00:57.010 --> 00:00:59.020 But I am a Baptist pastor. 21 00:00:59.050 --> 00:01:05.820 But I come here to talk to you not specifically as a Baptist, but as a pastor 22 00:01:05.850 --> 00:01:11.340 and as a New Testament instructor and as a Christian apologist. 23 00:01:11.370 --> 00:01:16.540 Christian apologetics is a very important part of what I do in all of those areas. 24 00:01:16.570 --> 00:01:20.620 And when I heard about the topic for this 25 00:01:20.650 --> 00:01:27.540 symposium, it really had my mind going about the opportunities that were there 26 00:01:27.570 --> 00:01:31.680 and thoughts that had been in the back of my mind from my experience within the 27 00:01:31.710 --> 00:01:35.460 Pentecostal Church, from my reading of John Wesley. 28 00:01:35.490 --> 00:01:38.020 And so I am very much looking forward to 29 00:01:38.050 --> 00:01:43.980 sharing with you about experience as a Christian apologetic. 30 00:01:44.010 --> 00:01:46.340 Now, there seems to be a renaissance going 31 00:01:46.370 --> 00:01:51.540 on within the church these days when it comes to Christian apologetics. 32 00:01:51.570 --> 00:01:57.180 There are more apologetics related books being published than ever before. 33 00:01:57.210 --> 00:02:03.490 There are countless blogs and websites and podcasts and all kinds of other online 34 00:02:03.520 --> 00:02:08.610 resources, as well as evidence that this is more than just a popular fad. 35 00:02:08.640 --> 00:02:10.960 You'll see that a lot of Bible colleges 36 00:02:10.990 --> 00:02:16.760 and seminaries, not only are they offering apologetics courses, a growing number of 37 00:02:16.790 --> 00:02:22.260 them are actually offering apologetics majors for their degrees. 38 00:02:22.290 --> 00:02:24.940 So there is something real happening 39 00:02:24.970 --> 00:02:30.980 within the church, a recognition that Christians need to respond to the 40 00:02:31.010 --> 00:02:35.380 questions and the concerns that people have. 41 00:02:35.410 --> 00:02:38.420 This apologetics movement is largely 42 00:02:38.450 --> 00:02:41.940 within the evangelical wing of Christianity. 43 00:02:41.970 --> 00:02:47.860 However, evangelicalism is a really wide tent. 44 00:02:47.890 --> 00:02:53.000 And the question we have to ask is, is Christian apologetics just limited to the 45 00:02:53.030 --> 00:02:59.420 part under the tent that really focuses on the intellectual aspects of faith, or are 46 00:02:59.450 --> 00:03:03.100 there opportunities elsewhere under the tent? 47 00:03:03.130 --> 00:03:05.420 What I'm going to try to do is demonstrate 48 00:03:05.450 --> 00:03:13.520 that Pentecostalism is and always has been positioned very well to be effective in a 49 00:03:13.550 --> 00:03:16.820 Christian apologetics in the context of experience. 50 00:03:16.850 --> 00:03:22.180 And what I'm going to do is try to define for you what Christian apologetics is and 51 00:03:22.210 --> 00:03:28.880 explain the role of it in the church and how experience can be better utilized as a 52 00:03:28.910 --> 00:03:32.100 Christian apologetics in the skeptical world. 53 00:03:32.130 --> 00:03:36.500 Now, for me, as a New Testament person who 54 00:03:36.530 --> 00:03:40.700 studies and teaches New Testament, it's important for me to start with the Bible. 55 00:03:40.730 --> 00:03:42.780 And so when we think about apologetics, 56 00:03:42.810 --> 00:03:48.380 very often we go to a passage like one Peter 315, where we're told to have an 57 00:03:48.410 --> 00:03:53.380 answer or a defense for the hope that is within us. 58 00:03:53.410 --> 00:03:55.580 The Greek word there for defense is 59 00:03:55.610 --> 00:04:00.700 apologia, and it means to provide a reason for a belief. 60 00:04:00.720 --> 00:04:03.060 Apologetics is larger than Christian apologetics. 61 00:04:03.090 --> 00:04:06.420 Apologetics has been around centuries before Christianity. 62 00:04:06.450 --> 00:04:09.380 Plato wrote his apology of Socrates. 63 00:04:09.410 --> 00:04:17.140 It's basically giving a reason why this is true or this is important, that Christians 64 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.820 are called to be ready to give an answer is clear. 65 00:04:20.840 --> 00:04:26.080 But Peter doesn't really give us a lot of detail about how that's supposed to be 66 00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:30.900 done, other than that it is to be done with gentleness and respect. 67 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:36.460 And whatever apologetic method we have, we definitely need to keep that in mind. 68 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:38.860 Some examples from the Apostle Paul might 69 00:04:38.890 --> 00:04:45.420 help us to see what kind of content can be a part of Christian apologetics. 70 00:04:45.450 --> 00:04:52.260 An important passage for us is from Paul's Evangelistic preaching in Acts chapter 17. 71 00:04:52.280 --> 00:04:56.820 Now, many apologists, when they look at Acts 17, will go directly to his 72 00:04:56.840 --> 00:05:01.220 experience in Athens, and I'm going to get there. 73 00:05:01.250 --> 00:05:06.120 But I think it's worth taking a little look at his experience in the Jewish 74 00:05:06.150 --> 00:05:11.460 synagogue in Thessalanka, in Acts 17, one to nine. 75 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:14.820 In this passage, we're told that Paul 76 00:05:14.840 --> 00:05:21.020 argues with the Jews, he argues with them, and some of them have come to faith. 77 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:25.780 If I have heard one objection that has come up more than anything else 78 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:29.980 when it comes to Paul Jackson, you cannot argue someone to Jesus. 79 00:05:30.010 --> 00:05:32.980 And yet, if you read Acts chapter 17, 80 00:05:33.010 --> 00:05:38.780 verses one to nine, you see Paul arguing and people coming to faith. 81 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:40.420 Of course, it's the Holy Spirit that is 82 00:05:40.450 --> 00:05:43.940 bringing the person, but the Holy Spirit can use anything. 83 00:05:43.970 --> 00:05:47.460 And in those cases, Paul is using arguments. 84 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:54.460 Now, more commonly, we go to the last part of chapter 17, verses 16 to 34, where Paul 85 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:58.780 interacts with philosophers and some other intellectuals. 86 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:02.420 Paul speaks to them on their level and in 87 00:06:02.450 --> 00:06:06.780 their style, even quoting some of their Greek poets. 88 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:11.740 Now, for many people within church, that is the apologetic method. 89 00:06:11.760 --> 00:06:12.700 That is how you do it. 90 00:06:12.730 --> 00:06:18.060 You do it through a purely intellectual level, interacting, quoting from 91 00:06:18.090 --> 00:06:21.260 appropriate sources, and that's how it's supposed to be done. 92 00:06:21.290 --> 00:06:25.740 However, we're going to take a look at another example, and the second example 93 00:06:25.770 --> 00:06:28.860 comes from Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians. 94 00:06:28.890 --> 00:06:32.100 Now, when Luke is talking about Paul and 95 00:06:32.130 --> 00:06:39.100 Thessalanca, he's focusing on the intellectual part of what Paul is doing. 96 00:06:39.130 --> 00:06:41.580 But Paul, when he's writing to the 97 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:46.300 Thessalonians, he rounds it out with a different picture. 98 00:06:46.330 --> 00:06:52.500 This is what he says in verses 14 and 15 from the first chapter for we know, 99 00:06:52.530 --> 00:06:58.780 brothers, loved by God, that he has chosen you because our Gospel came to you not 100 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:06.860 only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit, and with full conviction. 101 00:07:06.890 --> 00:07:09.980 In addition to Paul's words, there was an 102 00:07:10.010 --> 00:07:15.340 experience of the Holy Spirit that helped to bring confirmation. 103 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:19.380 There's more that we could say about what the Bible has to say about apologetics, 104 00:07:19.410 --> 00:07:22.300 but I want to get into some modern definitions as well. 105 00:07:22.320 --> 00:07:24.360 William Lane Craig is probably one of the 106 00:07:24.390 --> 00:07:29.260 most prominent apologists today, and this is how he defines apologetics. 107 00:07:29.290 --> 00:07:31.380 Apologetics, from the Greek apologia a 108 00:07:31.410 --> 00:07:37.740 defense is that branch of Christian theology which seeks to provide a rational 109 00:07:37.770 --> 00:07:41.580 justification for the truth claims of the Christian faith. 110 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:44.620 Apologetics is thus primarily a 111 00:07:44.650 --> 00:07:48.540 theoretical discipline, though it has a practical application. 112 00:07:48.570 --> 00:07:54.460 Now, in this definition, Craig is focusing on the intellectual aspect. 113 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:56.700 Alistair McGrath has a similar definition. 114 00:07:56.730 --> 00:07:59.420 He defines Paul Jackson, the field of 115 00:07:59.450 --> 00:08:03.780 Christian thought that focuses on the justification of the core themes of the 116 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:08.540 Christian faith and its effective communication to the nonchristian world. 117 00:08:08.570 --> 00:08:14.300 Now here McGrath is focusing on apologetics as an aspect of evangelism. 118 00:08:14.330 --> 00:08:17.460 However, this is the definition that I'm going to go with. 119 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:22.140 This is by John Stackhouse in his book Humble Apologetics. 120 00:08:22.170 --> 00:08:28.020 Thus, I suggest that anything that helps people take Christianity more seriously 121 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:34.220 than they did before, anything that helps defend and commend it properly, counts as 122 00:08:34.250 --> 00:08:39.700 apologetics and should be part of any comprehensive program of apologetics. 123 00:08:39.730 --> 00:08:41.760 That's the definition that I'm going to 124 00:08:41.790 --> 00:08:47.820 use with because the reality is both seekers and Christians struggle at times 125 00:08:47.850 --> 00:08:51.980 with their confidence in the truth claims of Christianity. 126 00:08:52.010 --> 00:08:58.100 And it is also true that some people respond to intellectual arguments while 127 00:08:58.130 --> 00:09:01.380 there are others who need other types of evidence. 128 00:09:01.410 --> 00:09:04.520 For many Christians, including myself, it 129 00:09:04.550 --> 00:09:08.440 is a combination of the two that is required. 130 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:10.960 When many people think of apologetics, one 131 00:09:10.990 --> 00:09:13.780 of the first names that's going to come up is that of C. 132 00:09:13.800 --> 00:09:15.920 S. Lewis. 133 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:17.260 When we think of C. S. 134 00:09:17.290 --> 00:09:21.580 Lewis, we probably think of his intellectual style of apologetics. 135 00:09:21.610 --> 00:09:23.340 And he was indeed brilliant. 136 00:09:23.370 --> 00:09:26.380 And yet when he looked back on his own 137 00:09:26.410 --> 00:09:31.020 faith journey in his book Surprised by Joy, he makes this very interesting 138 00:09:31.050 --> 00:09:37.180 statement what I like about experience is that it is such an honest thing. 139 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:42.260 You may take any number of wrong turnings, but keep your eyes open, and you will not 140 00:09:42.290 --> 00:09:45.860 be allowed to go very far before warning signs appear. 141 00:09:45.890 --> 00:09:51.020 You may have deceived yourself, but experience is not trying to deceive you. 142 00:09:51.050 --> 00:09:56.660 The universe rings true wherever you fairly test it. 143 00:09:56.690 --> 00:10:00.860 Experience is an important aspect of the Christian journey, and this is going to be 144 00:10:00.890 --> 00:10:08.260 demonstrated with just a few examples from John Wesley and also Pentecostalism. 145 00:10:08.290 --> 00:10:10.700 John Wesley, while not a systematic 146 00:10:10.730 --> 00:10:16.620 theologian or a professional philosopher, had more than enough intellectual rigor to 147 00:10:16.650 --> 00:10:21.020 participate in traditional intellectual apologetics. 148 00:10:21.050 --> 00:10:26.160 Albert eltler describes Wesley as having the habit of pitching on to the vulnerable 149 00:10:26.190 --> 00:10:32.300 links in an opponent's argument and trying to smash them one by one. 150 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:34.820 That sounds pretty much like what we think 151 00:10:34.850 --> 00:10:39.100 of apologetics happening and how it happens in certain contexts. 152 00:10:39.130 --> 00:10:42.760 Anything we see about Wesley's understanding of the confidence in the 153 00:10:42.790 --> 00:10:48.420 Christian faith must acknowledge that he had the capability to provide 154 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:53.140 an intellectual defense for the Christian faith. 155 00:10:53.170 --> 00:10:58.700 What Wesley sought for himself, and what he sought for other people as well, was a 156 00:10:58.730 --> 00:11:03.740 confidence and an assurance of being a true Christian. 157 00:11:03.770 --> 00:11:06.120 In order to provide confidence, Wesley did 158 00:11:06.150 --> 00:11:09.660 not go for the traditional arguments for God's existence. 159 00:11:09.690 --> 00:11:12.540 Wesley was already well trained in 160 00:11:12.570 --> 00:11:18.340 theology, and yet even in his early ministry he doubted his own salvation 161 00:11:18.370 --> 00:11:25.720 until the Aldersgate experience, when his heart was strangely warmed. 162 00:11:25.920 --> 00:11:28.100 Albert Elder's comments on Wesley's 163 00:11:28.130 --> 00:11:33.620 understanding of experience deserve to be quoted at length the essence of faith, 164 00:11:33.650 --> 00:11:38.180 whether at the threshold or in its fullness, has always to do with man's 165 00:11:38.210 --> 00:11:43.700 immediate and indubitable assurance of God's loving presence in his heart. 166 00:11:43.730 --> 00:11:48.260 Wesley followed Locke in the denial of innate ideas and appears never to have 167 00:11:48.290 --> 00:11:52.620 taken seriously the traditional arguments for the existence of God. 168 00:11:52.650 --> 00:11:55.260 In their place, he put an alternate notion 169 00:11:55.290 --> 00:12:01.260 of the self evidence of God's reality as strictly implied in the faithful man's 170 00:12:01.290 --> 00:12:05.740 awareness of God's gracious disposition toward him. 171 00:12:05.770 --> 00:12:08.700 This awareness of God's gracious presence 172 00:12:08.730 --> 00:12:14.060 is what Wesley meant by experience, and it was for him as real and 173 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:18.740 unmistakable a perception as any sensory awareness might be. 174 00:12:18.770 --> 00:12:21.160 This doctrine has been construed as a 175 00:12:21.190 --> 00:12:24.420 subjective theory of experience in general. 176 00:12:24.450 --> 00:12:27.300 In Wesley's view, however, it is a theory 177 00:12:27.330 --> 00:12:33.060 of religious knowledge, a corollary of his view of revelation. 178 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:37.740 For Wesley, it was possible for a Christian to have confidence in the 179 00:12:37.770 --> 00:12:41.820 Christian faith and assurance of personal salvation. 180 00:12:41.850 --> 00:12:44.700 Wesley believed that something real 181 00:12:44.730 --> 00:12:50.140 happened at a conversion and that Christians could expect some sort of 182 00:12:50.170 --> 00:12:54.860 experience of God's presence throughout their life. 183 00:12:54.890 --> 00:12:58.740 Wesley presents a clear description of what this looks like. 184 00:12:58.770 --> 00:13:01.900 In his essay The Witness of the Spirit 185 00:13:01.930 --> 00:13:07.060 Discourse Two, wesley describes the importance of understanding the nature of 186 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:11.060 the witness of the Spirit, and this is what it looks like 187 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:16.500 it is the more necessary to explain and defend the truth because there is a danger 188 00:13:16.530 --> 00:13:20.540 on the right hand and on the left if we deny it. 189 00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:25.140 There is a danger lest our religion degenerate into mere formality, lest 190 00:13:25.170 --> 00:13:30.860 having a form of Godliness, we neglect it, if not deny the power of it. 191 00:13:30.890 --> 00:13:33.920 If we allow it, but do not understand what 192 00:13:33.950 --> 00:13:39.140 we allow, we're liable to run into all the wildness of enthusiasm. 193 00:13:39.160 --> 00:13:40.940 It's therefore needful in the highest 194 00:13:40.970 --> 00:13:46.540 degree to guard those who fear God from both these dangers by a scriptural and 195 00:13:46.570 --> 00:13:51.580 rational illustration and confirmation of the religious truth. 196 00:13:51.610 --> 00:13:54.900 In his essay here on the Witness of the 197 00:13:54.930 --> 00:13:59.400 Spirit, wesley was able to distinguish between experience and enthusiasm, which 198 00:13:59.430 --> 00:14:03.380 was a criticism that the methodists were facing. 199 00:14:03.410 --> 00:14:06.180 The distinction was that true experience 200 00:14:06.210 --> 00:14:11.700 was a type of religious intuition rather than perceptions and feelings. 201 00:14:11.730 --> 00:14:15.380 In this essay that Wesley writes, he 202 00:14:15.410 --> 00:14:19.340 measures religious experience to scriptural standards. 203 00:14:19.370 --> 00:14:22.140 Experience is seen in the light of Romans 204 00:14:22.170 --> 00:14:27.740 816, where God's spirit witnesses with the person's spirit. 205 00:14:27.770 --> 00:14:30.540 This isn't just a subjective experience. 206 00:14:30.570 --> 00:14:35.340 There are outward signs that tell us when this is happening. 207 00:14:35.370 --> 00:14:38.500 Christian experience must be accompanied 208 00:14:38.530 --> 00:14:41.300 by the manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit. 209 00:14:41.330 --> 00:14:44.100 While there is room for the timing and the 210 00:14:44.130 --> 00:14:50.020 manner in which the Spirit's work is taking place, total absence of the fruit 211 00:14:50.050 --> 00:14:55.700 of the Spirit should lead to questions of the validity of the experience. 212 00:14:55.730 --> 00:15:00.660 John Wesley expected that when a person was confronted with the Gospel and they 213 00:15:00.690 --> 00:15:05.740 responded with faith that something real was taking place, conversion was more than 214 00:15:05.770 --> 00:15:09.220 just mental ascent to a certain creed or formula. 215 00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:12.300 The Holy Spirit was active in such a way 216 00:15:12.330 --> 00:15:15.820 that a person experienced assurance of salvation. 217 00:15:15.850 --> 00:15:18.520 The truth of Christianity, while able to 218 00:15:18.550 --> 00:15:24.080 be defended on other grounds, was revealed in the ongoing transformation of the 219 00:15:24.110 --> 00:15:29.980 Christian and then turning briefly to Pentecostalism in its origin. 220 00:15:30.010 --> 00:15:32.300 The Pentecostal distinctive is that 221 00:15:32.330 --> 00:15:37.660 experience can be used as evidence, specifically that speaking in tongues is 222 00:15:37.690 --> 00:15:40.060 evidence for the baptism of the Holy Spirit. 223 00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:42.260 Receiving of the baptism is not something 224 00:15:42.290 --> 00:15:47.340 that needs to be guessed at, but rather is accompanied by a manifestation. 225 00:15:47.370 --> 00:15:50.740 It's accompanied by something happening by the Holy Spirit. 226 00:15:50.770 --> 00:15:53.860 Glossalalia is not the only spiritual 227 00:15:53.890 --> 00:15:57.380 evidence of the existence of the presence of God. 228 00:15:57.410 --> 00:15:59.920 The earliest revivals, such as Azuza 229 00:15:59.950 --> 00:16:03.500 Street, produced changes in people's lives. 230 00:16:03.530 --> 00:16:08.880 That evidence that something real was taking place into the 21st century. 231 00:16:08.910 --> 00:16:12.300 It's still said that Sunday morning is the 232 00:16:12.330 --> 00:16:20.720 most segregated hour in America, and yet 100 years ago, blacks and whites worshiped 233 00:16:20.750 --> 00:16:24.740 together in unity, not putting one before the other. 234 00:16:24.770 --> 00:16:30.180 It was said that the color line was washed away in the blood. 235 00:16:30.210 --> 00:16:36.100 Revivals were evidence of the reality of God and the truth of God's Word. 236 00:16:36.130 --> 00:16:40.460 Frank Bartleman, who was one of the witnesses and the participants of the 237 00:16:40.490 --> 00:16:45.420 Azuza Street revival, quotes Ch Spursion, who I will note is a Baptist. 238 00:16:45.450 --> 00:16:52.540 With these words, the presence of God in the church will put an end to infidelity. 239 00:16:52.570 --> 00:16:58.620 Men will not doubt his word when they feel his spirit. 240 00:16:58.650 --> 00:17:05.220 Now, skeptics may claim that improved race relations are possible without God. 241 00:17:05.250 --> 00:17:09.770 They might claim the Glossalia cannot be verified as authentic. 242 00:17:09.800 --> 00:17:13.500 But there was other manifestations that were taking place as well. 243 00:17:13.530 --> 00:17:14.380 Robert M. 244 00:17:14.410 --> 00:17:20.920 Anderson quotes makes this statement about some of those early revivals every manner 245 00:17:20.950 --> 00:17:25.770 of disease and disability was alleged to have been cured, and the most spectacular 246 00:17:25.800 --> 00:17:29.400 miracles were claimed, including the growth of new fingers on the hand of a 247 00:17:29.430 --> 00:17:32.180 woman who had lost the originals in an accident. 248 00:17:32.210 --> 00:17:37.530 Numerous persons testified to having seen the dead restored to life. 249 00:17:37.560 --> 00:17:39.460 Participants in the revivals were not 250 00:17:39.490 --> 00:17:44.620 naive enough to think that every claim of the supernatural came from God. 251 00:17:44.650 --> 00:17:46.810 Bartleman, in his book on Azuza Street, 252 00:17:46.840 --> 00:17:51.090 often laments in his accounts of the revival that there were the presence of 253 00:17:51.120 --> 00:17:54.940 spiritualists who were coming to the meetings as well as people who operated 254 00:17:54.970 --> 00:17:58.860 the flesh and who were just trying to make a name for themselves. 255 00:17:58.890 --> 00:18:03.620 Nevertheless, for those who were seeking a faith that was real and a God that was 256 00:18:03.650 --> 00:18:08.330 active, there was more than enough credible evidence. 257 00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:11.860 How does this all fit with Christian apologetics? 258 00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:13.920 Going back to Stackhouse's definition of 259 00:18:13.950 --> 00:18:18.760 apologetics as anything that helps people take Christianity more serious than 260 00:18:18.790 --> 00:18:25.290 before, anything that helps defend and commend it properly counts as apologetics. 261 00:18:25.320 --> 00:18:31.140 There's a tremendous opportunity here for the experiential side of Christianity. 262 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:36.380 Apologetics is appropriate in the context of evangelism, when a seeker is 263 00:18:36.410 --> 00:18:43.330 considering faith but is being held back by doubts and other misgivings. 264 00:18:43.360 --> 00:18:47.770 Apologetics is also appropriate in the context of discipleship. 265 00:18:47.800 --> 00:18:49.770 As Christians grow in their confidence in 266 00:18:49.800 --> 00:18:55.420 the Christian faith, authentic spiritual experiences can make a difference. 267 00:18:55.450 --> 00:18:59.140 In both cases, authentic experiences of 268 00:18:59.170 --> 00:19:04.520 and testimonies to healings and other dramatic answers to prayer can be a 269 00:19:04.550 --> 00:19:08.330 powerful apologetic to the truth of Christianity. 270 00:19:08.360 --> 00:19:11.140 However, such apologetic value requires 271 00:19:11.170 --> 00:19:15.620 much more than just preaching a message of signs and wonders. 272 00:19:15.650 --> 00:19:20.700 One of the challenges to the apologetic value of experiences comes within the 273 00:19:20.730 --> 00:19:26.140 charismatic movement itself, specifically the Prosperity Gospel. 274 00:19:26.170 --> 00:19:28.220 The Prosperity Gospel claims that 275 00:19:28.250 --> 00:19:33.840 blessings such as health and wealth are entitled to every Christian and all they 276 00:19:33.870 --> 00:19:39.740 have to do is to claim it and to ask it and they will receive it. 277 00:19:39.770 --> 00:19:42.770 The problem with the Prosperity Gospel, 278 00:19:42.800 --> 00:19:49.140 among other things, is not that it is too experiential, but rather it is 279 00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:54.770 not experiential enough, since experience demonstrates that not 280 00:19:54.800 --> 00:20:01.320 every faithful Christian is healed, claiming all will be healed when that's 281 00:20:01.350 --> 00:20:05.770 not reality actually leads to more disbelief. 282 00:20:05.800 --> 00:20:07.680 Another challenge for experience as a 283 00:20:07.710 --> 00:20:12.010 Christian apologetic is accepting the limitations of religious experience. 284 00:20:12.040 --> 00:20:15.050 When Mormons are challenged on their faith 285 00:20:15.080 --> 00:20:19.770 and about the lack of archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon and other 286 00:20:19.800 --> 00:20:24.940 problems, they will fall back on what they call their testimony. 287 00:20:24.970 --> 00:20:27.660 Their testimony is the experience they had 288 00:20:27.690 --> 00:20:33.380 after reading the Book of Mormon, praying to God about the truth of the Book of 289 00:20:33.410 --> 00:20:37.380 Mormon and feeling what they call the burning in the bosom. 290 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:38.900 And if they feel the burning in the bosom 291 00:20:38.930 --> 00:20:44.960 that's God signed that yes indeed, the Book of Mormon is true. 292 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.090 Now, what's the difference between this 293 00:20:48.120 --> 00:20:54.810 Mormon burning in the bosom and Wesley's strangely warmed heart? 294 00:20:54.840 --> 00:20:56.330 There is a major difference. 295 00:20:56.360 --> 00:21:01.530 The difference is Wesley's experience worked in cooperation with all the 296 00:21:01.560 --> 00:21:05.500 historical and rational support for Biblical Christianity. 297 00:21:05.530 --> 00:21:08.290 While the Mormons evidence is in 298 00:21:08.320 --> 00:21:15.980 substitute for any other support within the pentecostal experience of signs. 299 00:21:16.010 --> 00:21:18.330 The same limitations are there. 300 00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:22.220 Even Frank Bartleman, who was there at a Sousa street and participated in so many 301 00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:27.180 things with all of his confidence in the way the Holy spirit was working in various 302 00:21:27.210 --> 00:21:33.380 churches and missions, still fell into the error of oneness Pentecostalism. 303 00:21:33.410 --> 00:21:36.090 A religious experience, while pointing to 304 00:21:36.120 --> 00:21:42.180 something that is supernatural, does not necessarily confirm theological accuracy. 305 00:21:42.210 --> 00:21:44.770 Experiential apologetics must be held to a 306 00:21:44.800 --> 00:21:49.700 standard of biblical authority and historic Christianity. 307 00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:53.040 I want to take a look at experience and a 308 00:21:53.070 --> 00:21:56.290 way forward for us how this can be practical for us. 309 00:21:56.320 --> 00:22:02.290 What role is there for experience as Christian apologetics? 310 00:22:02.320 --> 00:22:02.940 C. S. 311 00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:06.460 Lewis, in his book Miracles, said this 312 00:22:06.490 --> 00:22:09.660 if anything extraordinary seems to have happened. 313 00:22:09.690 --> 00:22:13.290 We can always say that we have been the victims of an illusion. 314 00:22:13.320 --> 00:22:19.540 If we hold a philosophy which excludes the supernatural, this is what we shall say. 315 00:22:19.570 --> 00:22:22.280 What we learn from experience depends on 316 00:22:22.310 --> 00:22:26.420 the kind of philosophy we bring to the experience. 317 00:22:26.450 --> 00:22:28.980 Some, especially among the new atheists 318 00:22:29.010 --> 00:22:34.330 today who firmly hold to a modernist worldview where science can explain 319 00:22:34.360 --> 00:22:40.780 everything, will never accept religious experience or miracles as evidence for the 320 00:22:40.810 --> 00:22:43.810 existence of God or the truth of Christianity. 321 00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:49.570 However, in a culture that is at least strongly influenced by postmodernism, 322 00:22:49.600 --> 00:22:54.460 there is an opportunity for some nonchristians. 323 00:22:54.490 --> 00:22:57.090 The arguments from experience will carry 324 00:22:57.120 --> 00:23:02.660 far more authority than the claims of the Bible or ecclesiastical leaders. 325 00:23:02.690 --> 00:23:07.090 That doesn't mean experience is more important than biblical teaching, but 326 00:23:07.120 --> 00:23:13.480 rather apologists will need to work hard to demonstrate the truth that the 327 00:23:13.510 --> 00:23:18.900 experience of the true God is the God who's revealed in the Bible. 328 00:23:18.930 --> 00:23:23.090 A good beginning for this renewed effort 329 00:23:23.120 --> 00:23:30.330 in experiential apologetics is Craig Keener's two volume book Miracles. 330 00:23:30.360 --> 00:23:32.700 Craig Keener is both a Pentecostal 331 00:23:32.730 --> 00:23:37.500 Christian and one of the most highly respected New Testament scholars. 332 00:23:37.530 --> 00:23:40.620 In his book, Keener presents a solid study 333 00:23:40.650 --> 00:23:45.500 of miracles in the New Testament and in the ancient world. 334 00:23:45.530 --> 00:23:51.740 However, the largest section of his book is on modern miracle accounts from around 335 00:23:51.770 --> 00:23:55.220 the world, in the majority world and in the west as well. 336 00:23:55.250 --> 00:23:59.810 Keener seeks to demonstrate that there is some good evidence for credible 337 00:23:59.840 --> 00:24:04.420 supernatural experiences that are consistent with biblical witness. 338 00:24:04.450 --> 00:24:06.980 This is what Keener says 339 00:24:07.010 --> 00:24:13.460 examples can readily refute misinformed claims that people do not experience many 340 00:24:13.490 --> 00:24:18.090 highly unusual recoveries that they attribute to prayer, in particular 341 00:24:18.120 --> 00:24:23.420 extraordinary cases or an accumulation of mildly extraordinary ones. 342 00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:29.420 They may also shift the probability toward supernatural explanations if one's 343 00:24:29.450 --> 00:24:34.050 starting assumptions do not rule out such explanations. 344 00:24:34.080 --> 00:24:37.020 As Lewis warns, bringing a strict 345 00:24:37.050 --> 00:24:42.090 naturalistic philosophy will allow readers to reject Keener's claims. 346 00:24:42.120 --> 00:24:45.180 However, for others, reports of miracles 347 00:24:45.210 --> 00:24:51.050 and supernatural experience in a sober and credible manner may help accomplish the 348 00:24:51.080 --> 00:24:57.220 goal, as Stackhouse has stated, of taking Christianity more seriously. 349 00:24:57.250 --> 00:25:02.940 And I'll just end just with a personal note for myself as someone involved in 350 00:25:02.970 --> 00:25:06.290 Christian apologetics and involved in Christian ministry. 351 00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:11.780 If someone comes to me and says, what is the one reason why, you know, that God is 352 00:25:11.810 --> 00:25:14.980 real and Christianity is true, what would I say? 353 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.960 Well, you know what? It's going to depend upon the day on a 354 00:25:17.990 --> 00:25:21.810 week like this Holy Week, good Friday, Easter Sunday. 355 00:25:21.840 --> 00:25:25.920 I'm thinking of the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. 356 00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.740 I believe that the resurrection of Jesus 357 00:25:27.770 --> 00:25:34.180 is one of the most historically verifiable events in all of religious history. 358 00:25:34.210 --> 00:25:35.290 But you know what? 359 00:25:35.320 --> 00:25:38.360 You ask me on another day and I think of 360 00:25:38.390 --> 00:25:44.180 some very specific answers to prayer that go far beyond coincidence. 361 00:25:44.210 --> 00:25:46.360 Religious experiences that I've had in 362 00:25:46.390 --> 00:25:50.180 that way that I don't see as happening by accident. 363 00:25:50.210 --> 00:25:54.700 And on those days, those are the ones that I hold on to. 364 00:25:54.730 --> 00:25:56.570 So I think there's a role for both. 365 00:25:56.600 --> 00:26:01.090 We need to be using our minds in terms of rational apologetics, but certainly we 366 00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:08.290 should be taking seriously the Holy spirits and the supernatural experiences 367 00:26:08.320 --> 00:26:11.660 that we might experience in our walk of faith. 368 00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:14.480 Are there any questions. 369 00:26:15.040 --> 00:26:16.810 Based on Sacramento definition? 370 00:26:16.840 --> 00:26:20.540 Would you think it's valid to say that 371 00:26:20.570 --> 00:26:24.140 compassionate ministry and seeking for justice is apologetics? 372 00:26:24.170 --> 00:26:26.000 Oh, definitely. 373 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:28.380 There's a book by 374 00:26:28.410 --> 00:26:32.620 Ron Cider and he's written a whole bunch of books on this kind of topic. 375 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.660 But he does make a statement in one of his 376 00:26:34.690 --> 00:26:44.740 books about something he calls holistic apologetics and being active in 377 00:26:44.770 --> 00:26:49.460 social justice and helping the poor and all of those types of things. 378 00:26:49.490 --> 00:26:52.290 Definitely there is an important role for 379 00:26:52.320 --> 00:26:55.660 that as an apologetic, and I think it's one of the most important ones. 380 00:26:55.690 --> 00:26:57.180 Because 381 00:26:57.210 --> 00:27:03.050 of certain things that have happened in certain churches and public personalities, 382 00:27:03.080 --> 00:27:08.290 there's a need to rebuild our reputation for why we're doing what we're doing. 383 00:27:08.320 --> 00:27:13.460 So definitely, yeah, the idea of apologetics really is very wide. 384 00:27:13.490 --> 00:27:15.480 Very wide. 385 00:27:15.600 --> 00:27:17.920 Anything else? 386 00:27:21.360 --> 00:27:23.780 I like your comment about John Wesley. 387 00:27:23.810 --> 00:27:26.720 I've been watching some debates, for 388 00:27:26.750 --> 00:27:32.780 example, Alice McGrath, and that did cross my mind about two 389 00:27:32.810 --> 00:27:38.810 things the character issue, but also the confrontation with the living God. 390 00:27:38.840 --> 00:27:40.570 Whether that comes into it. 391 00:27:40.600 --> 00:27:44.810 Because this guy is 392 00:27:44.840 --> 00:27:48.290 he's saying things to the living God, not just Alastair McGrath. 393 00:27:48.320 --> 00:27:54.740 He doesn't think, okay, somewhere I just wonder whether the apologist 394 00:27:54.770 --> 00:27:58.500 doesn't have some kind of upper hand, which is what John Western seems to 395 00:27:58.530 --> 00:28:03.860 indicate, that because of his being immersed in Scripture, in the life of God 396 00:28:03.890 --> 00:28:11.420 and in prayer, perhaps some of this other stuff, god was in a sense, with him. 397 00:28:11.450 --> 00:28:17.500 So when he was in confrontation with someone, there was that intangible sense. 398 00:28:17.530 --> 00:28:23.460 I kind of wondered that when I saw some of these and Craig as well. 399 00:28:23.490 --> 00:28:27.880 If you have some comments on that, maybe your experience or someone else in this 400 00:28:27.910 --> 00:28:35.540 room that intangible in the face of the young believers existence. 401 00:28:35.570 --> 00:28:37.860 Well, as you're talking about that, it 402 00:28:37.890 --> 00:28:41.900 made me think about Billy Graham's preaching. 403 00:28:41.930 --> 00:28:45.980 And if you watch Billy Graham preach, I 404 00:28:46.010 --> 00:28:51.940 mean, obviously he's the most effective or successful evangelist. 405 00:28:51.970 --> 00:28:54.050 But if you just listen to his sermons 406 00:28:54.080 --> 00:28:58.540 purely on a homolettic level, just that he's not the best preacher. 407 00:28:58.570 --> 00:29:01.570 I mean, he's very good, but he's not the best preacher. 408 00:29:01.600 --> 00:29:03.420 So I would listen to his sermons. 409 00:29:03.450 --> 00:29:04.500 Why is he effective? 410 00:29:04.530 --> 00:29:06.220 Why are people responding? 411 00:29:06.250 --> 00:29:07.980 And then it hit me. 412 00:29:08.010 --> 00:29:11.440 He really believes this stuff. 413 00:29:12.560 --> 00:29:13.940 But you know what I mean? 414 00:29:13.970 --> 00:29:16.900 He's confident about it. 415 00:29:16.930 --> 00:29:22.420 I could present a message on something that I really like, some topic 416 00:29:22.450 --> 00:29:27.780 that I'm interested, but it comes across when you have a confidence 417 00:29:27.810 --> 00:29:30.500 in what you're saying because of your experience. 418 00:29:30.530 --> 00:29:35.520 And we could do a long study of what was the difference between Billy Graham and 419 00:29:35.550 --> 00:29:42.020 Charles Templeton because they both hit the same problem of their confidence. 420 00:29:42.040 --> 00:29:44.800 And there's a story in Billy Graham's biography, I think. 421 00:29:44.830 --> 00:29:49.220 He goes off into the woods and he puts his Bible on a stump and he's wrestling with 422 00:29:49.250 --> 00:29:53.420 the questions that he has and something happens to him there. 423 00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.900 Something happens to him there that didn't happen to Charles Templeton. 424 00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:00.660 Just to add to that, Charles Templeton has there's an experience of Charles Templeton 425 00:30:00.690 --> 00:30:04.520 where he prays for a baby and the baby's healed and he refuses to. 426 00:30:04.550 --> 00:30:06.660 Believe it because he did that's. Right. 427 00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:08.260 Yeah. And that goes to what CS. 428 00:30:08.290 --> 00:30:09.090 Lewis says. 429 00:30:09.120 --> 00:30:13.620 If we are determined to bring something, we bring our philosophy. 430 00:30:13.650 --> 00:30:15.460 Either it's complete naturalism or 431 00:30:15.490 --> 00:30:20.140 whatever, we're going to be affected by that. 432 00:30:20.170 --> 00:30:25.460 But what I'm seeing in people today and this is whether it's online 433 00:30:25.490 --> 00:30:30.660 conversations I have or within my church or community, people are open to it, that 434 00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:34.090 there's some kind of there's more explanation. 435 00:30:34.120 --> 00:30:37.020 That modernist view that science explains everything. 436 00:30:37.050 --> 00:30:40.140 People don't necessarily buy that anymore. 437 00:30:40.170 --> 00:30:42.500 I mean, there's an opportunity for the 438 00:30:42.530 --> 00:30:46.380 church to jump onto that and to demonstrate. 439 00:30:46.410 --> 00:30:51.260 But we have to keep that level right between that balance between experience 440 00:30:51.290 --> 00:30:54.660 and Bible, because again, we could follow Frank Bartleman. 441 00:30:54.690 --> 00:30:56.500 Lots of experience 442 00:30:56.530 --> 00:31:02.040 won this pentecostalism, and it happens very easily. 443 00:31:04.840 --> 00:31:06.810 So it seems to me in our. 444 00:31:06.840 --> 00:31:08.440 Time. 445 00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:11.700 A lot of issues. 446 00:31:11.730 --> 00:31:13.780 We want to settle them. 447 00:31:13.810 --> 00:31:17.920 We look for a well designed experiment. 448 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:21.420 What are the effects of global climate 449 00:31:21.450 --> 00:31:25.400 change and how we prepare for well, let's get together a group of scientists the 450 00:31:25.430 --> 00:31:30.260 Harvard government criticized because they didn't seem to defer to the scientists. 451 00:31:30.290 --> 00:31:33.260 So let's get the numbers, whatever field. 452 00:31:33.290 --> 00:31:36.740 So it seems at least what we're being told 453 00:31:36.770 --> 00:31:43.780 is that we should be moved by the scientifically well designed experimental. 454 00:31:43.810 --> 00:31:45.720 And I wonder if that's itself a 455 00:31:45.750 --> 00:31:50.330 distinctive challenge for apologetics in the Christian faith. 456 00:31:50.360 --> 00:31:54.810 That what it is we are trying to validate, if you want. 457 00:31:54.840 --> 00:31:57.380 It doesn't give itself to that kind of thing. 458 00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:00.620 I mean, there are well designed experiments about the power of prayer and 459 00:32:00.650 --> 00:32:05.780 the distance and all that sort of stuff, but in some ways they seem to me like 460 00:32:05.810 --> 00:32:09.460 that wasn't the kind of evidence I was really needing. 461 00:32:09.490 --> 00:32:10.380 You follow me? 462 00:32:10.410 --> 00:32:15.760 I understand persuasive power of the well designed experiment seems so much to be 463 00:32:15.790 --> 00:32:20.540 sought these days, but seems somehow at odds with the kinds of things that the 464 00:32:20.570 --> 00:32:23.780 Christian faith needs as the persuasive tools. 465 00:32:23.810 --> 00:32:26.500 Lewis in miracles actually anticipates 466 00:32:26.530 --> 00:32:31.020 those experiments, and he's imagining that we did this kind of thing. 467 00:32:31.040 --> 00:32:32.900 And he talks about why that doesn't really 468 00:32:32.930 --> 00:32:35.900 matter, as if God is going to feel trapped. 469 00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:37.050 Oh, they ask the question. 470 00:32:37.080 --> 00:32:38.740 I guess I have to answer. 471 00:32:38.770 --> 00:32:41.220 It doesn't quite work out that way. 472 00:32:41.250 --> 00:32:48.050 What I'm finding for apologetics people do not necessarily need the 473 00:32:48.080 --> 00:32:53.400 airtight answers that I need to know exactly how everything happened. 474 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:54.860 What's the age of the Earth? 475 00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:56.330 I get asked, what's the age of the word? 476 00:32:56.360 --> 00:32:58.380 And I have a ready answer. What the age of the word? 477 00:32:58.410 --> 00:32:59.620 I know the age. 478 00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:02.330 This planet Earth has been around for at least 47 years. 479 00:33:02.360 --> 00:33:04.940 I know it okay. 480 00:33:04.970 --> 00:33:11.290 And so, yeah, these things aren't so important. 481 00:33:11.320 --> 00:33:19.560 But I find that people want to know that their questions matter 482 00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:29.940 when they're trying to understand why is God allowing suffering going on? 483 00:33:29.970 --> 00:33:34.980 How can there be all these different religions that people actually want to be? 484 00:33:35.010 --> 00:33:38.290 The space to talk about those things. 485 00:33:38.320 --> 00:33:40.460 The Hemorrhaging Faith study that was done 486 00:33:40.490 --> 00:33:44.940 a number of years ago, very important in terms of what's happening with faith 487 00:33:44.970 --> 00:33:48.500 experience of people in the young adult generation. 488 00:33:48.530 --> 00:33:50.640 And one of the concerns that came up is 489 00:33:50.670 --> 00:33:53.420 that they didn't have that space to ask those questions. 490 00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:59.260 Now, the response for apologists is not necessarily, here, read this. 491 00:33:59.290 --> 00:34:00.860 The conversation is over. 492 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:02.980 It's about discussion, saying, you know what? 493 00:34:03.010 --> 00:34:08.300 Some thoughtful people have looked at these things and reflected upon them. 494 00:34:08.330 --> 00:34:15.170 And the Bible, historic Christianity, has something to say on this. 495 00:34:15.200 --> 00:34:18.020 And oftentimes apologetics keeps 496 00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:24.100 Christianity on the table and not long enough for the Spirit to do his work. 497 00:34:24.130 --> 00:34:27.020 And not just before conversion, but after 498 00:34:27.050 --> 00:34:30.260 conversion as well, because we need those reminders. 499 00:34:30.290 --> 00:34:32.740 So again, one of the things that come up 500 00:34:32.770 --> 00:34:37.020 is, well, apologetics, they don't really leave a lot of room for mystery. 501 00:34:37.050 --> 00:34:39.780 I have lots of mystery. Okay. 502 00:34:39.810 --> 00:34:46.860 There's a lot of things that I don't know, but on some of the major things of did 503 00:34:46.890 --> 00:34:50.540 Jesus claim that he was more than a person? 504 00:34:50.570 --> 00:34:54.650 Is there a reason to believe that he actually physically rose from the dead? 505 00:34:54.680 --> 00:34:58.520 We can talk about these things, 506 00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:05.000 and there's room for it, and there's a biblical basis for it. 507 00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:17.280 Thank you very much.