Zeeb, Janelle. “Comparing Arminianism and Open Theism on Theodicy: An Example of How Experience Affects our Preferences for Theological Systems.” Paper presented at the Annual Wesley Studies Symposium, Tyndale University College & Seminary, Toronto, Ontario, March 22, 2016. (MPEG 3, 37:45 min.) 1 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:03.300 Ah. Janelle is a recent graduate of Pindel. 2 00:00:03.330 --> 00:00:07.340 She did an excellent master's thesis on the topic. 3 00:00:07.370 --> 00:00:11.260 She's going to talk about open theism and The Odyssey. 4 00:00:11.290 --> 00:00:16.260 And you may be aware, within the Wesley and Armenian community, wesley and 5 00:00:16.290 --> 00:00:19.020 Armenian theology classically is not open theism. 6 00:00:19.040 --> 00:00:20.420 Right. 7 00:00:20.450 --> 00:00:24.260 We're not open theists in general, but there are some Wesleyans who are 8 00:00:24.290 --> 00:00:30.100 sympathetic some Iranians are sympathetic to openness theology, open theism. 9 00:00:30.120 --> 00:00:32.660 And so it's an interesting question for our community. 10 00:00:32.680 --> 00:00:36.700 So I want to thank Janelle for bringing it to our attention. 11 00:00:36.730 --> 00:00:37.900 I brought a handout. 12 00:00:37.930 --> 00:00:42.520 I think it kind of helps follow the order of my presentation. 13 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:45.720 Sure. 14 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:49.400 Yeah. 15 00:00:49.800 --> 00:00:51.920 There's yeah, that opens towards the door. 16 00:00:51.950 --> 00:00:57.480 There's a bathroom, and the back door, I think, does open to the front. 17 00:01:11.240 --> 00:01:12.490 Yeah. Come on in. 18 00:01:12.520 --> 00:01:14.570 We're just you're right on time. 19 00:01:14.600 --> 00:01:16.360 Come. 20 00:01:18.800 --> 00:01:21.280 Oh, yes, sir. 21 00:01:40.440 --> 00:01:42.600 You got one. 22 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:07.120 Back. There one. 23 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:05.900 Good afternoon, everyone. Like Dr. 24 00:03:05.930 --> 00:03:11.000 Penley said, my name is Janelle, and I'm a recent graduate from Timdale. 25 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:13.660 Can you turn the volume? 26 00:03:13.690 --> 00:03:15.680 I'll try. 27 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:17.780 First time really presenting anything 28 00:03:17.810 --> 00:03:20.820 academic in front of a group, so I'll try to speak loudly. 29 00:03:20.850 --> 00:03:23.060 I'm a little bit nervous. 30 00:03:23.090 --> 00:03:24.340 My name is Janelle Lee. 31 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.860 I'm a recent graduate from Tyndill with my Master of Theological Studies. 32 00:03:27.890 --> 00:03:31.920 I graduated in November, and I'm very happy to be here and be able to share with 33 00:03:31.950 --> 00:03:36.100 you this presentation, which is based on part of my thesis. 34 00:03:36.130 --> 00:03:38.800 So you've got the handout. It's double sided. 35 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:40.140 It kind of follows the order of my 36 00:03:40.170 --> 00:03:43.180 presentation, so I hope it's relatively clear. 37 00:03:43.210 --> 00:03:48.340 So I've titled this presentation comparing Armenianism and Open Theism on The Odyssey 38 00:03:48.370 --> 00:03:52.940 an example of how experience affects our preferences for theological system. 39 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:54.460 So while we might think that which 40 00:03:54.490 --> 00:03:59.340 theological system such as Calvinism Armenianism or Open Theism that we choose 41 00:03:59.370 --> 00:04:03.140 to align ourselves with should be based primarily on biblical exegesis and 42 00:04:03.170 --> 00:04:06.980 systematic theology, in reality, it is much more complex. 43 00:04:07.010 --> 00:04:10.840 In this presentation, I will show that our personal experiences, beliefs, and 44 00:04:10.870 --> 00:04:15.100 preferences also affect which theological system we are most drawn to. 45 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:16.620 This will be done by comparing the 46 00:04:16.650 --> 00:04:20.940 differences between Armenian and open theist approaches to theodicy and showing 47 00:04:20.970 --> 00:04:25.300 what factors influence which system is more personally convincing. 48 00:04:25.330 --> 00:04:30.100 Theodosy in particular, is a good example to use to compare theological system as 49 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.020 theodosy can be argued to be one of the most important aspects of any theological 50 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:38.100 system, and it is also one of the most practically relevant. 51 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:39.740 I'm sure all of us have wondered about 52 00:04:39.770 --> 00:04:42.860 God's relationship to the evil and suffering in our lives. 53 00:04:42.890 --> 00:04:46.620 In fact, theodosy is possibly the area where our experience most directly 54 00:04:46.650 --> 00:04:51.000 influences our theology, as theodosy attempts to explain our experiences of 55 00:04:51.030 --> 00:04:54.740 evil and reconcile them with our faith in a good and loving God. 56 00:04:54.770 --> 00:04:58.980 So each of us experiences different instances of evil and suffering in our 57 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.540 lives in the sense that we will all approach the Odyssey from our own personal 58 00:05:02.570 --> 00:05:06.660 perspective with our own sufferings, most prominently in mind. 59 00:05:06.690 --> 00:05:11.540 And as we will see, our view of The Odyssey will influence our view of God. 60 00:05:11.570 --> 00:05:17.020 So there are many similarities between open theism and Armenianism. 61 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:21.440 So both Armenians and Open theists agree that God can only act according to his 62 00:05:21.470 --> 00:05:25.940 nature, which is love, and thus God can never do evil or will evil. 63 00:05:25.970 --> 00:05:30.140 Both also make use of the free will defense for The Odyssey, which explains 64 00:05:30.170 --> 00:05:33.420 evil as a misuse of God given creaturely free will. 65 00:05:33.440 --> 00:05:37.260 However, due to differing definitions of God's omniscience, there are significant 66 00:05:37.290 --> 00:05:40.060 differences in their implications for theodicy. 67 00:05:40.080 --> 00:05:44.020 I will focus on three main areas where the differences between Armenian and Open 68 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:47.540 theist approaches to theodacy are the most distinct. 69 00:05:47.570 --> 00:05:49.800 However, before we can discuss this, we 70 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:52.540 have to deal with a somewhat abstract philosophical topic. 71 00:05:52.570 --> 00:05:54.980 So please bear with me for now. 72 00:05:55.010 --> 00:05:59.140 So the main issue that divides Armenians and Open Theists is on the issue of how 73 00:05:59.170 --> 00:06:01.740 God's foreknowledge relates to human freedom. 74 00:06:01.770 --> 00:06:04.060 Armenians say that God knows what we will 75 00:06:04.090 --> 00:06:08.180 freely do, but this does not force us to act in ways that God foreknows. 76 00:06:08.210 --> 00:06:12.780 But open seats disagree and believe that if the future is foreknown by God, then 77 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:17.260 the future is fixed and we have no real freedom to change it. 78 00:06:17.290 --> 00:06:20.300 Ultimately, it's impossible to know who is right. 79 00:06:20.320 --> 00:06:22.060 And here is where our own philosophical 80 00:06:22.090 --> 00:06:26.220 beliefs can affect which theological system appears most credible to us. 81 00:06:26.250 --> 00:06:30.420 On the Armenian side, it makes sense that we are still free, even though God knows 82 00:06:30.450 --> 00:06:34.100 what we will do simply because we do not yet know what we will do. 83 00:06:34.130 --> 00:06:36.680 So when making any choice, it's free from 84 00:06:36.710 --> 00:06:39.300 our perspective because we do not know the future. 85 00:06:39.320 --> 00:06:42.920 So for example, let's say that God for knows I will eat spaghetti for dinner 86 00:06:42.950 --> 00:06:45.860 tonight when I'm in the kitchen, choosing what to eat. 87 00:06:45.880 --> 00:06:47.660 I do not know that God knows I will eat 88 00:06:47.690 --> 00:06:50.700 spaghetti and God is not forcing me to eat spaghetti. 89 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:52.700 And so my choice does seem to be free, as 90 00:06:52.730 --> 00:06:55.820 Armenians say, even though God foreknows it. 91 00:06:55.850 --> 00:07:00.060 In fact, if I had chosen soup instead, God's foreknowledge would have been 92 00:07:00.090 --> 00:07:03.980 different and he would eternally foreknown that I would eat soup. 93 00:07:04.010 --> 00:07:06.180 But then let's think about another example. 94 00:07:06.210 --> 00:07:08.180 Let's say that God perfectly foreknows 95 00:07:08.210 --> 00:07:10.460 that I will be in a car accident next week. 96 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:12.620 Since it's perfectly foreknown by God and 97 00:07:12.650 --> 00:07:16.860 nothing can alter his knowledge, then nothing I do between now and then can 98 00:07:16.890 --> 00:07:21.100 prevent me from being in that car accident exactly as God foreknows. 99 00:07:21.130 --> 00:07:24.580 So I can't take a different route or take public transit instead. 100 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.740 Or I would be changing the content of God's foreknowledge. 101 00:07:27.760 --> 00:07:29.560 Even prayers for God to protect me while 102 00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:32.260 driving could not change the future that God foreknows. 103 00:07:32.280 --> 00:07:34.140 And so, from this perspective it does seem 104 00:07:34.170 --> 00:07:37.540 that if God foreknows something, then the future is unchangeable. 105 00:07:37.570 --> 00:07:41.540 So therefore, Open Theists say that in order for humans to have real freedom and 106 00:07:41.570 --> 00:07:45.100 significant choices, god cannot foreknow what we will choose. 107 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:47.900 At first glance, this would seem to be an unbiblical idea. 108 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:51.200 And so, to reassure you that it's not heretical, please let me give a short 109 00:07:51.230 --> 00:07:55.420 overview of how open theists understand God's omniscience and omnipotence. 110 00:07:55.440 --> 00:07:57.440 So open theists say that God's omniscience 111 00:07:57.470 --> 00:08:00.340 means that God knows everything that any being can know. 112 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:02.420 He knows everything that's ever existed, 113 00:08:02.450 --> 00:08:06.420 everything that now actually exists, everything that could possibly exist in 114 00:08:06.450 --> 00:08:09.700 the future, and everything that he has decided to do. 115 00:08:09.730 --> 00:08:11.800 However, because of the conviction that 116 00:08:11.830 --> 00:08:15.940 God's foreign knowledge of a future choice would remove our freedom, open theists 117 00:08:15.970 --> 00:08:20.340 believe that in order to preserve real human freedom, god either willingly limits 118 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.420 his own knowledge of the future, or else perhaps the nature of the future is such 119 00:08:24.450 --> 00:08:27.460 that there are some things even God can't know for certain. 120 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:31.460 This is kind of similar to the commonly accepted idea that there are some things 121 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:35.620 that even God can't do, such as make a square circle. 122 00:08:35.640 --> 00:08:37.520 But this doesn't mean that God loses all 123 00:08:37.550 --> 00:08:41.460 providential control, because God still knows a huge amount of information. 124 00:08:41.490 --> 00:08:43.980 He knows the present and past perfectly. 125 00:08:44.010 --> 00:08:46.460 He knows things that do not depend on free choice. 126 00:08:46.490 --> 00:08:48.060 He knows our hearts completely. 127 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.340 And God knows what options are open to us 128 00:08:50.370 --> 00:08:53.860 and even how likely we may be to choose one option over the other. 129 00:08:53.880 --> 00:08:55.740 So if you take the previous example about 130 00:08:55.760 --> 00:08:59.260 choosing what to have for dinner, god could know that there's like a 70% chance 131 00:08:59.290 --> 00:09:02.860 that I'll have spaghetti and a 30% chance that I will choose soup. 132 00:09:02.880 --> 00:09:04.260 But open theists would say that God 133 00:09:04.290 --> 00:09:08.000 couldn't know for sure which one I would choose. 134 00:09:08.520 --> 00:09:10.380 And then regarding omnipotence, open 135 00:09:10.400 --> 00:09:13.900 theists say that God's omnipotence does not mean that he controls everything. 136 00:09:13.930 --> 00:09:18.060 Instead, it means that God is so resourceful, flexible and intelligent that 137 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:20.780 he can achieve his purposes in a variety of ways. 138 00:09:20.810 --> 00:09:22.740 So God can work around any good or bad 139 00:09:22.770 --> 00:09:26.800 choices we make, and he can even work around those who directly oppose Him in 140 00:09:26.820 --> 00:09:29.980 order to ensure that his ultimate goals are never defeated. 141 00:09:30.010 --> 00:09:32.160 Therefore, to open theist, God does not 142 00:09:32.190 --> 00:09:36.100 need perfect poor knowledge in order to still achieve his purposes. 143 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:39.380 And by now, you're probably wondering about how open theism handles biblical 144 00:09:39.410 --> 00:09:43.720 prophecy and I'll get to that in a few minutes. 145 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:52.100 So now, while this may seem to be simply 146 00:09:52.130 --> 00:09:55.800 an interesting abstract debate, it actually has important implications for 147 00:09:55.820 --> 00:10:00.060 how we understand God's relationship to evil, which then has practical 148 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:03.300 consequences for how we face evil in our lives. 149 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:06.480 Depending on our opinion of these philosophical questions, we might be 150 00:10:06.510 --> 00:10:09.420 inclined more towards Armenianism or open theism. 151 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:13.100 If one believes that God's foreknowledge of the future does indeed mean it is fixed 152 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:16.720 and unchangeable, it would seem that the open theist approach may offer more 153 00:10:16.750 --> 00:10:19.700 motivation to oppose evil than the Armenian one. 154 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:21.380 If we believe that we can actually change 155 00:10:21.410 --> 00:10:25.540 the future because it is not set in stone due to God's perfect foreknowledge of it. 156 00:10:25.560 --> 00:10:28.980 It can encourage us to do what we can to oppose evil and relieve suffering. 157 00:10:29.010 --> 00:10:32.380 Now also we can believe that we are not 158 00:10:32.410 --> 00:10:36.220 doomed to experience any particular occasion of evil simply because God 159 00:10:36.250 --> 00:10:41.100 foreknows it will occur, such as the car accident example I mentioned earlier. 160 00:10:41.130 --> 00:10:44.040 So the open PSU may also help encourage us 161 00:10:44.040 --> 00:10:46.820 that our futures are not predetermined by God's foreknowledge. 162 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:50.300 Which means we can change ourselves and the world around us for the better. 163 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:53.620 This can be a very encouraging outlook on the world. 164 00:10:53.650 --> 00:10:58.220 So on the contrary, to preserve motivation to oppose evil, an Armenian would have to 165 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:02.020 hold tightly to the conviction that God's knowing of the future does not remove our 166 00:11:02.050 --> 00:11:04.980 freedom and responsibility to work against evil. 167 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:08.720 If they were ever tempted to think that because God foreknows something, that it's 168 00:11:08.750 --> 00:11:12.860 unavoidable, or that God has preplanned evil or allowed evil for some greater 169 00:11:12.890 --> 00:11:17.220 good, it could easily lead to apathy or complacency to work against evil. 170 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:18.940 So therefore, depending on one's thought 171 00:11:18.970 --> 00:11:22.980 process and philosophical beliefs, open theism could possibly provide more 172 00:11:23.010 --> 00:11:27.580 motivation to oppose evil than the Armenian approach does. 173 00:11:27.610 --> 00:11:29.620 There is another difficulty Armenian may 174 00:11:29.650 --> 00:11:33.540 have with respect to the Odyssey, which is the problem of foreknown evil. 175 00:11:33.570 --> 00:11:37.620 So this comes from looking back at evil events that occurred in history. 176 00:11:37.650 --> 00:11:39.560 For example, if God perfectly forensic 177 00:11:39.580 --> 00:11:42.060 what Hitler would do, he had created him anyway. 178 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:46.260 And does that mean that God is guilty for unleashing such a person on the world? 179 00:11:46.290 --> 00:11:50.380 Or did God know it was better to allow Hitler's actions than to not allow them? 180 00:11:50.410 --> 00:11:52.740 Thus, Armenians must find ways to justify 181 00:11:52.770 --> 00:11:56.300 why God allows the evil that he forenose will occur. 182 00:11:56.330 --> 00:11:58.700 But opatheists have a similar problem. 183 00:11:58.730 --> 00:12:00.940 Instead of having to justify why God 184 00:12:00.970 --> 00:12:05.100 allows evil that he foreknows will occur, open theists must explain why God allows 185 00:12:05.130 --> 00:12:09.140 evil that he is quite certain will occur based on his present knowledge. 186 00:12:09.170 --> 00:12:11.060 So for example, even if God did not 187 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:15.140 foreknow what Hitler would do, once God knew Hitler's evil intentions and saw the 188 00:12:15.170 --> 00:12:19.820 evil that he had already done, then why did God continue to let Hitler live? 189 00:12:19.850 --> 00:12:22.860 Or regarding the events of September 11, 190 00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:25.960 god would have known the plans of the terrorists and would have seen them 191 00:12:25.990 --> 00:12:30.260 carrying out each step, yet seemingly did nothing to stop them. 192 00:12:30.290 --> 00:12:32.360 To answer these problems, both Armenians 193 00:12:32.390 --> 00:12:36.260 and open theeists can appeal to God's respect for human freedom. 194 00:12:36.280 --> 00:12:40.420 Both could argue that God does not prevent more evil, because if he did prevent, say, 195 00:12:40.450 --> 00:12:46.020 the worst evil, then because they didn't happen, we would not be able then we would 196 00:12:46.050 --> 00:12:50.020 demand that God prevent the next worst evils which we do see occurring. 197 00:12:50.050 --> 00:12:52.300 And this would continue in a cycle until 198 00:12:52.330 --> 00:12:55.100 we would demand that God prevent all evil in the world. 199 00:12:55.130 --> 00:12:58.460 Yet this would mean that God would have to override all free will. 200 00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:00.640 So if God desires that we exercise free 201 00:13:00.670 --> 00:13:04.780 will to love and obey Him, then he must accept that since we are free, we will not 202 00:13:04.800 --> 00:13:06.900 always use our free will in the way he wants. 203 00:13:06.920 --> 00:13:08.660 And in order to honor the freedom he has 204 00:13:08.690 --> 00:13:12.900 given us, he must not override the evil that results from the misuse of free will. 205 00:13:12.920 --> 00:13:14.760 Both Armenians and open theists could 206 00:13:14.790 --> 00:13:19.220 agree with Clarkinox, who wrote god is moved by love to restrain the divine power 207 00:13:19.250 --> 00:13:23.420 temporarily and voluntarily, out of respect for the integrity of creatures, 208 00:13:23.450 --> 00:13:27.380 even creatures whose activities fall short of God's purposes. 209 00:13:27.410 --> 00:13:32.460 However, there may be one case where open theism has an advantage, as illustrated by 210 00:13:32.490 --> 00:13:36.220 the story of Suzanne as told by her pastor, Gregory Boyd. 211 00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:40.480 So Suzanne wanted to be a missionary to Taiwan, and she had prayed that God would 212 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:44.220 guide her to the right man to marry who would have a similar heart for missions. 213 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:46.220 In college, she met a man who had the same 214 00:13:46.250 --> 00:13:49.940 goals as she did and who was compatible with her in many other areas. 215 00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:53.340 So she felt it must have been divine providence that they had met. 216 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:55.340 But Suzanne wanted confirmation from God 217 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.580 that this was indeed the man she should marry. 218 00:13:57.610 --> 00:14:01.700 She prayed intensely and finally believed that she had received this confirmation. 219 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:03.620 Yet she was devastated two years later 220 00:14:03.640 --> 00:14:06.220 when she found out her husband had committed adultery. 221 00:14:06.250 --> 00:14:09.740 He appeared to repent, yet cheated on her several more times. 222 00:14:09.770 --> 00:14:12.020 He lost his desire for missions to Taiwan 223 00:14:12.050 --> 00:14:14.580 and became physically and emotionally abusive. 224 00:14:14.610 --> 00:14:16.820 Finally, he filed for divorce and moved out. 225 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.780 And just two weeks later, Suzanne found out she was pregnant. 226 00:14:19.810 --> 00:14:24.220 So Suzanne was angry at God because if God knew exactly what her husband would do, 227 00:14:24.250 --> 00:14:29.260 then God bears all the responsibility for setting her up the way he did. 228 00:14:29.290 --> 00:14:33.540 This situation could be hard for an Armenian to explain to Suzanne. 229 00:14:33.560 --> 00:14:35.520 Why would God tell her to marry a man who 230 00:14:35.550 --> 00:14:38.700 God perfectly forensic would hurt her in such a deep way? 231 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:40.020 Should we appeal to the common 232 00:14:40.050 --> 00:14:43.860 explanations that maybe God has a greater good purpose for her suffering? 233 00:14:43.880 --> 00:14:45.900 Or maybe he was trying to teach her something? 234 00:14:45.930 --> 00:14:50.220 Or maybe she did not hear God's guidance correctly, or something else? 235 00:14:50.250 --> 00:14:55.300 Or is it easier to say, as her open theist Pastor Gregory Boyd did, that maybe God 236 00:14:55.330 --> 00:14:59.460 did not know how Suzanne's husband would misuse his free will to hurt her. 237 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:02.900 Boyd suggested that initially, God believed that Suzanne marrying her husband 238 00:15:02.930 --> 00:15:06.860 would have a high chance of having a happy marriage and fulfilling ministry. 239 00:15:06.890 --> 00:15:09.020 But when her husband decided to misuse his 240 00:15:09.040 --> 00:15:12.860 free will to commit adultery, it led to him becoming a different person than who 241 00:15:12.890 --> 00:15:17.300 he was when God had recommended that Suzanne marry him. 242 00:15:17.330 --> 00:15:21.840 So this explanation comforted Suzanne, helped her love God again, and retained 243 00:15:21.870 --> 00:15:24.380 her faith in being able to hear God's guidance. 244 00:15:24.400 --> 00:15:28.340 The open theists have an advantage over Armenians here because they do not have to 245 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.800 believe that God may guide us into situations where he perfectly foreknows. 246 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:35.240 We will experience evil in response. 247 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:36.780 There are two main objections to the open 248 00:15:36.800 --> 00:15:40.540 theist idea that God does not know what evil may happen to us in the future. 249 00:15:40.570 --> 00:15:42.580 The first objection is that if there 250 00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:46.900 really is evil that God did not foresee and is not part of God's plan, then 251 00:15:46.930 --> 00:15:49.660 doesn't mean the evil we experience has no purpose. 252 00:15:49.680 --> 00:15:53.500 Often those who make this objection fear that removing the sense of purpose behind 253 00:15:53.530 --> 00:15:57.380 evil, pain or suffering will remove the ability to endure it. 254 00:15:57.400 --> 00:16:00.000 Yet. Open theists reply that because God's 255 00:16:00.030 --> 00:16:04.300 significance means he is very resourceful, flexible and intelligent, we can still 256 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:08.300 trust that God can bring some good out of the evil we experience, even if the evil 257 00:16:08.330 --> 00:16:12.940 was not intended for good and even if God did not foreknow the evil would happen. 258 00:16:12.970 --> 00:16:17.700 It may even be that God is so capable of recovering good out of unforeseen evil 259 00:16:17.730 --> 00:16:22.060 that it might appear to us as if his backup plan was his original plan. 260 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:25.980 The second objection is that if God does not foreknow the evil that will happen to 261 00:16:26.010 --> 00:16:29.620 us, then how can he give us useful guidance to avoid it? 262 00:16:29.640 --> 00:16:31.620 Open theist can reply that God's present 263 00:16:31.650 --> 00:16:36.100 knowledge is so complete and God's wisdom is so great that in most cases, perfect 264 00:16:36.130 --> 00:16:40.760 knowledge of the future is not necessary to give helpful guidance for long term 265 00:16:40.760 --> 00:16:43.220 guidance, such as who to marry or which career to choose. 266 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:45.060 Open theists say that while God does care 267 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:48.580 about these things, he does not have one set plan for our lives. 268 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:50.400 Instead, what matters most to God is that 269 00:16:50.400 --> 00:16:53.980 we are conformed to the image of Christ and this can happen in a variety of 270 00:16:54.010 --> 00:16:57.860 careers or with a variety of marriage partners. 271 00:16:57.880 --> 00:16:59.980 So there might not be one set plan for our 272 00:17:00.010 --> 00:17:02.780 lives, but many different good paths that we can choose. 273 00:17:02.810 --> 00:17:06.460 And God can work out his plan for us in many different ways. 274 00:17:06.490 --> 00:17:10.620 So as we've seen, the story of Suzanne can show that to some people it's more 275 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.050 comforting to believe that God did not knowingly guide them down a path that 276 00:17:14.080 --> 00:17:18.330 guaranteed they would experience evil and suffering, even if it means accepting a 277 00:17:18.360 --> 00:17:21.140 different perspective on God's omissions and guidance. 278 00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:23.050 Others who are drawn to Arminianism might 279 00:17:23.080 --> 00:17:26.770 find more comfort in the belief that God knows exactly how their lives will unfold 280 00:17:26.800 --> 00:17:30.040 and trust that God's poor knowledge means he has planned for good to come out of any 281 00:17:30.070 --> 00:17:32.660 of the evils they experience along the way. 282 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.180 Some people might find the idea that God does not have one set plan for their lives 283 00:17:36.210 --> 00:17:39.140 liberating, while others might find it terrifying. 284 00:17:39.170 --> 00:17:43.220 And like Suzanne, we may even change our views if something happens to us which is 285 00:17:43.250 --> 00:17:46.460 significant enough to make us question our previous convictions. 286 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:48.290 Therefore, our personal perspectives on 287 00:17:48.320 --> 00:17:52.560 philosophy and theology and our personal experiences can certainly affect which 288 00:17:52.590 --> 00:17:57.740 theological system we are drawn to, and these factors can change over time. 289 00:17:57.760 --> 00:17:59.860 However, I do think at this point in time. 290 00:17:59.890 --> 00:18:03.700 There is one clear advantage for Armenianism in relation to the Odyssey and 291 00:18:03.730 --> 00:18:06.660 that is regarding the problem of prophesied evil. 292 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:08.560 So open theists say that God can predict 293 00:18:08.590 --> 00:18:12.660 things that are likely to happen on the basis of his perfect present knowledge and 294 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:16.010 God can predict things that he plans to do in a specific circumstance. 295 00:18:16.040 --> 00:18:17.800 So while this approach may work for a 296 00:18:17.800 --> 00:18:21.320 large number of prophecies, there are still a few specific cases that are 297 00:18:21.350 --> 00:18:26.140 troubling, particularly the cases where God prophesies very specific evil events. 298 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.740 I have not yet read a convincing open theist approach to how God is able to 299 00:18:29.770 --> 00:18:35.180 prophesy Judas's betrayal of Jesus or Peter's three denials of Jesus before dawn 300 00:18:35.210 --> 00:18:38.860 or even the crucifixion of Jesus on the exact right date of crossover. 301 00:18:38.890 --> 00:18:43.280 We can't say that God caused Judas to betray Jesus or made Peter deny Christ in 302 00:18:43.310 --> 00:18:47.250 order to fulfill prophecy or we would be taking away Judas and Peter's personal 303 00:18:47.280 --> 00:18:51.500 responsibility for their behaviors and making God responsible for evil. 304 00:18:51.530 --> 00:18:53.900 So while God could have known that Judas 305 00:18:53.930 --> 00:18:58.180 was considering betraying Jesus, jesus open theists can't say that God perfectly 306 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.380 for me, he would actually go through with it. 307 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:04.280 If Judas had freely chosen not to betray Jesus, then God would have needed some 308 00:19:04.310 --> 00:19:06.980 other way for Jesus to be delivered to the sanhedrin. 309 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.520 And while God might have known that at that particular moment in time peter had 310 00:19:10.520 --> 00:19:13.400 this sort of character which made him likely to deny Jesus, if you were 311 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:16.840 pressured, it would have required God to coordinate all the circumstances. 312 00:19:16.840 --> 00:19:18.770 Peter was in that night in order to make 313 00:19:18.800 --> 00:19:22.810 sure he was asked by the right people at the right time to make it all happen. 314 00:19:22.840 --> 00:19:27.570 And what if Peter really decided to go home and sleep after the first denial? 315 00:19:27.600 --> 00:19:31.980 So a similar level of complicated design coordination of people's evil actions 316 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.050 would have been needed to ensure that Jesus would be crucified on the exact 317 00:19:35.080 --> 00:19:39.220 right date, not a week earlier or a few days later in order to fulfill the 318 00:19:39.250 --> 00:19:42.140 passover foreshadowing from the Old Testament. 319 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.700 So these are the sorts of complicated explanations that open theists need to 320 00:19:45.730 --> 00:19:49.140 have in order to explain these very specific prophecies. 321 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.760 But at this point it seems like it's much easier to take the Armenian approach and 322 00:19:52.790 --> 00:19:56.900 say that God can prophesy about evil actions simply because he foreknows them, 323 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:00.440 which means that God does not have to have any involvement in coordinating evil 324 00:20:00.470 --> 00:20:04.010 events in order to make them happen as prophesied. 325 00:20:04.040 --> 00:20:08.010 So therefore, if someone desires to have a more straightforward explanation for 326 00:20:08.040 --> 00:20:11.980 biblical prophecy which keeps God from being involved in any coordination of evil 327 00:20:12.010 --> 00:20:14.900 events, perhaps Armenianism is more attractive. 328 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:18.770 Yet if someone can tolerate a little mystery surrounding how difficult biblical 329 00:20:18.800 --> 00:20:22.380 prophecies work, perhaps open theism may be an option. 330 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.860 This shows how there are many factors that are at work in our choice of theological 331 00:20:25.890 --> 00:20:29.900 system and there are tradeoffs no matter which system we choose. 332 00:20:29.930 --> 00:20:32.380 So in conclusion I hope this analysis has 333 00:20:32.410 --> 00:20:36.460 shown that our personal experiences and philosophical beliefs have a significant 334 00:20:36.490 --> 00:20:40.090 influence on which theological system we choose to align ourselves with. 335 00:20:40.120 --> 00:20:42.440 In particular, our experiences of evil can 336 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:46.280 have a powerful effect on our belief system, which may cause some to hold even 337 00:20:46.280 --> 00:20:49.900 more tightly to their previous beliefs, while others may find that, like Suzanne, 338 00:20:49.930 --> 00:20:54.700 switching theological systems can provide answers they need to continue loving God. 339 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.660 There is a level of faith required in all 340 00:20:56.690 --> 00:21:00.740 cases that open theists may need to have faith that Bible prophecy is true and 341 00:21:00.770 --> 00:21:05.290 accurate, even if it's not yet fully explainable by open theism and also have 342 00:21:05.320 --> 00:21:08.740 faith that God can still achieve his purposes and provide guidance to us. 343 00:21:08.770 --> 00:21:11.250 Even without fully knowing the future, an 344 00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:14.320 Armenian will need to have faith that there is some reason why God allows all 345 00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:17.980 the evil that he forenos, and that despite God knowing the future, we are still 346 00:21:18.010 --> 00:21:21.980 responsible to do what we can now to oppose evil. 347 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:23.460 So there are trade offs in every 348 00:21:23.490 --> 00:21:26.380 theological system that must be weighed by the individual. 349 00:21:26.410 --> 00:21:30.740 Depending on their own beliefs, needs and priorities, each person may come to 350 00:21:30.770 --> 00:21:34.010 different conclusions on which tradeoffs are acceptable to them. 351 00:21:34.040 --> 00:21:36.180 Perhaps this is why multiple theological 352 00:21:36.210 --> 00:21:40.840 systems exist despite having only one Bible, despite some critics who argue that 353 00:21:40.870 --> 00:21:45.500 there is only one right system and label anyone who disagrees with them a heretic, 354 00:21:45.530 --> 00:21:49.090 this shows how theological diversity is valuable in the church. 355 00:21:49.120 --> 00:21:52.050 Because of this time, we all see in a dim and partial way. 356 00:21:52.080 --> 00:21:55.660 Our experiences and personal beliefs are currently an important factor in helping 357 00:21:55.690 --> 00:21:59.860 us make sense of faith right now until the day when we all speak clearly. 358 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:01.620 So therefore, because we're all different 359 00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:05.260 and have different experiences that influence our theological understanding, 360 00:22:05.290 --> 00:22:09.570 theological diversity among regions is necessary in order to help as many people 361 00:22:09.600 --> 00:22:13.900 as possible find a place in a church which can encourage their faith, help them love 362 00:22:13.930 --> 00:22:17.900 God, comfort them in difficult times, and keep pointing them to Christ. 363 00:22:17.930 --> 00:22:19.880 Thank you. 364 00:22:24.520 --> 00:22:25.290 Very much. 365 00:22:25.320 --> 00:22:28.380 In case you didn't catch it, that's the first time doing an academic paper. 366 00:22:28.410 --> 00:22:33.700 So please encourage her and glad that you did a wonderful job and really helping us 367 00:22:33.730 --> 00:22:41.400 do to relate it to life and ministry and things we can all relate to. 368 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:43.090 And I should have mentioned also that 369 00:22:43.120 --> 00:22:47.020 Janelle has been accepted into a PhD program at Whitlock College in the Fall, 370 00:22:47.050 --> 00:22:51.480 where she's going to be working on Jonathan Edwards and The Odyssey. 371 00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:56.600 Continue that work, but questions, comments, responses? 372 00:23:01.840 --> 00:23:04.290 I've worked in mission work two African 373 00:23:04.320 --> 00:23:09.290 countries and there are non Christian belief. 374 00:23:09.320 --> 00:23:13.700 For instance, fatalism determinism. 375 00:23:13.730 --> 00:23:19.940 This expression we often hear it must have happened for a reason, 376 00:23:19.970 --> 00:23:24.570 or the soldier that says there's a bullet out there with my name on it. 377 00:23:24.600 --> 00:23:27.140 Well, these are from secular sources. 378 00:23:27.170 --> 00:23:29.290 The person that has that view has to 379 00:23:29.320 --> 00:23:32.460 identify with one of these theological positions. 380 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.260 I guess it's comforting to know that 381 00:23:34.290 --> 00:23:38.400 something has been predetermined and I can't do anything to change it. 382 00:23:38.430 --> 00:23:41.180 So life goes on. 383 00:23:41.210 --> 00:23:45.940 Now, how to convey these thoughts to a congregation, 384 00:23:45.970 --> 00:23:53.400 for instance, of people who grew up in a culture of paglist is a huge challenge. 385 00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:57.780 I guess that's sort of what I ran across when I was doing my thesis. 386 00:23:57.810 --> 00:24:00.440 I was comparing Calvinism mostly with osintm. 387 00:24:00.470 --> 00:24:02.840 And Calvinist can be very deterministic to 388 00:24:02.870 --> 00:24:07.140 the point of saying that everything that happens is what God wants to happen. 389 00:24:07.170 --> 00:24:11.460 But I think probably the clearest rebuttal to that idea is that what does God want? 390 00:24:11.490 --> 00:24:12.180 Sin. 391 00:24:12.210 --> 00:24:16.570 And some of them maybe go so far as to say that, yes, God does want sin for some 392 00:24:16.600 --> 00:24:20.810 obscure reason, to show his glory and his wrath at sin and all that sort of thing. 393 00:24:20.840 --> 00:24:23.740 I think it's much clearer to say that God doesn't want sin. 394 00:24:23.770 --> 00:24:25.720 So therefore, if something happens that 395 00:24:25.750 --> 00:24:29.900 God doesn't want, clearly not everything is caused by God. 396 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:31.090 So there's other factors. 397 00:24:31.120 --> 00:24:32.540 There must be other factors going on, 398 00:24:32.570 --> 00:24:35.980 especially once you include the idea of spiritual warfare. 399 00:24:36.010 --> 00:24:39.260 This can also prevent the idea of fatalism. 400 00:24:39.290 --> 00:24:41.500 We can say that there are other forces at 401 00:24:41.530 --> 00:24:45.560 playing in this world besides just what God wants. 402 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:49.900 There's a bunch of different ideas. 403 00:24:49.930 --> 00:24:52.090 I also ran across the story of John Piper 404 00:24:52.120 --> 00:24:56.810 who talked about his experience when his mom died in a car crash. 405 00:24:56.840 --> 00:25:00.960 And to him, he said that he could not worship the God who can't control, like a 406 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.620 piece of lumber which came through the van and killed his mom. 407 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.520 So to him, he had to believe that God had caused him death for a greater purpose and 408 00:25:07.520 --> 00:25:10.500 that's the only way he could continue loving God and worshiping God. 409 00:25:10.530 --> 00:25:13.330 So it really shows us how people react to the evil. 410 00:25:13.360 --> 00:25:15.810 And suffering is really in a bunch of different ways. 411 00:25:15.840 --> 00:25:20.050 And to some people it really does comfort them to think that, okay, God's happening, 412 00:25:20.080 --> 00:25:24.600 god caused this to happen and he's doing it for some reason. 413 00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:27.280 Everyone's different. 414 00:25:28.320 --> 00:25:32.420 Have you read Tom Horton? Not yet. 415 00:25:32.450 --> 00:25:34.620 I've read a couple of reviews about it. 416 00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:36.360 One which kind of was negative about it 417 00:25:36.390 --> 00:25:39.700 and called him kind of close to a process theist. 418 00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:41.320 And then another one which kind of was 419 00:25:41.320 --> 00:25:44.260 more positive and saying that, no, he's really not a process theist. 420 00:25:44.290 --> 00:25:49.220 He's just expressing his own ideas of kind of an open theist view of God. 421 00:25:49.250 --> 00:25:51.400 Open theism based on the idea that God's 422 00:25:51.430 --> 00:25:54.090 essential nature is love is never controlling. 423 00:25:54.120 --> 00:25:55.700 So God cannot be controlling. 424 00:25:55.730 --> 00:25:58.140 So he can't prevent evil because he 425 00:25:58.170 --> 00:26:03.570 actually has no control over because of his essential nature, which is love. 426 00:26:03.600 --> 00:26:07.920 It's a way of getting God up. 427 00:26:10.280 --> 00:26:12.290 Yeah, I mean, just based on what you said 428 00:26:12.320 --> 00:26:15.810 there, I think that maybe that goes a little bit too far. 429 00:26:15.840 --> 00:26:21.660 I think we should say that God can prevent some evil and he can override some 430 00:26:21.690 --> 00:26:26.540 evils which we obviously are not aware of because he's prevented them. 431 00:26:26.570 --> 00:26:31.140 But we'd say that in general he doesn't override evil because he respects freedom. 432 00:26:31.170 --> 00:26:35.140 So there must be some evils which God realizes are serious enough that he must 433 00:26:35.170 --> 00:26:40.160 override otherwise the human race might come to not exist anymore such as the 434 00:26:40.190 --> 00:26:45.140 threat of nuclear war or all sorts of spread of disease and stuff like this. 435 00:26:45.170 --> 00:26:48.540 I think God has control over these things in order to keep us alive. 436 00:26:48.570 --> 00:26:53.180 And on this planet, once you have the idea of spiritual 437 00:26:53.210 --> 00:26:58.140 warfare that God is countering constantly what the opposing forces are trying to do. 438 00:26:58.170 --> 00:27:02.740 So I don't think it's the case that God can't control evil because he's loved. 439 00:27:02.770 --> 00:27:06.980 I think it's just there's a certain limit that in general he doesn't prevent smaller 440 00:27:07.010 --> 00:27:11.500 incidences of evil because of our freedom and everything. 441 00:27:11.530 --> 00:27:14.020 But I think he does prevent big instances 442 00:27:14.050 --> 00:27:18.400 of evil because you have to to keep them all alive. 443 00:27:18.800 --> 00:27:25.000 Because or you would say we have a logical inconsistency because God will prevent the 444 00:27:25.030 --> 00:27:29.290 murder of one person, allow a holocaust to occur. 445 00:27:29.320 --> 00:27:34.810 And if you want to split the positive heal someone has many, many other die. 446 00:27:34.840 --> 00:27:36.220 And so it's back and forth. 447 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:37.620 And God seems very capricious. 448 00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:38.980 So that's his way of engaging. 449 00:27:39.010 --> 00:27:41.660 That's another work in this. 450 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:43.680 There's a very interesting couple of interesting books. 451 00:27:43.710 --> 00:27:46.660 Have you read God at War by Gregory Boyd? 452 00:27:46.690 --> 00:27:49.330 Or Satan and the Problem of Evil for Boyd 453 00:27:49.360 --> 00:27:53.260 has a very interesting idea that God gives different amounts of freedom to different 454 00:27:53.290 --> 00:27:57.740 creatures and depending on how these creatures use their freedom they can cause 455 00:27:57.770 --> 00:28:00.380 more or less evil depending on what they're doing. 456 00:28:00.410 --> 00:28:02.290 And depending on how many 457 00:28:02.320 --> 00:28:05.900 people decide to align themselves with evil, god is going to have a more 458 00:28:05.930 --> 00:28:09.810 difficult time countering those than countering instances where there's less 459 00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:13.460 opposition, less people throwing their free will kind of behind that. 460 00:28:13.490 --> 00:28:16.180 So I think that's probably a promising way to go. 461 00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:19.000 And I think I have an idea, I'm starting 462 00:28:19.030 --> 00:28:23.090 to work on that that might be a solution to the biblical prophecy of evil events 463 00:28:23.120 --> 00:28:28.360 from an open thes perspective and I hope to eventually write a book on that. 464 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:32.380 Within the academic community. 465 00:28:32.410 --> 00:28:37.090 Is open theism seen as an evangelical theology? 466 00:28:37.120 --> 00:28:43.260 I think it depends on which evangelicals you talk. 467 00:28:43.290 --> 00:28:45.500 Ask the question. 468 00:28:45.530 --> 00:28:47.500 Clark Kenneth and Gregory Boyd, who are 469 00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:51.460 both the most vocal advocates of open theism that I've run across at this point, 470 00:28:51.490 --> 00:28:56.700 also John Sanders, they all come across as very evangelical. 471 00:28:56.730 --> 00:29:02.780 I think it just depends on it being more well known in the evangelical community. 472 00:29:02.800 --> 00:29:05.020 Lots of people don't know what open theism is. 473 00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:06.760 When I first heard about it, like oh, the 474 00:29:06.760 --> 00:29:09.380 idea that God doesn't know the future, I'm like oh come on, that's ridiculous. 475 00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:11.220 I can't believe that the Bible says otherwise. 476 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:12.940 But once you really get into the details 477 00:29:12.970 --> 00:29:18.570 of understanding how open theism works, it becomes much more credible. 478 00:29:18.600 --> 00:29:23.740 There was association evangelicalism on file where. 479 00:29:23.770 --> 00:29:26.700 There was a move right, to kick in and out 480 00:29:26.730 --> 00:29:32.760 of the Evangelical Theological Society, but it didn't happen. 481 00:29:34.080 --> 00:29:37.040 He just doesn't come. 482 00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:41.600 He might be there. 483 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:43.980 In any of your readings, did you find that 484 00:29:44.010 --> 00:29:49.180 some of the just because you mentioned evangelical did you find any indication 485 00:29:49.210 --> 00:29:56.570 that some of the evangelical response to comes from a lack of comfort with mystery? 486 00:29:56.600 --> 00:30:00.600 I mean, you mentioned mystery at one point during during your talk and certainly your 487 00:30:00.600 --> 00:30:03.980 talk this morning asking that joint question, what are you afraid of? 488 00:30:04.010 --> 00:30:09.800 I wonder if that question is asked at all about. 489 00:30:12.120 --> 00:30:15.140 I think there's a level of mystery in all of our beliefs. 490 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.560 All theological systems like the Calvinists often have to appeal to the 491 00:30:18.590 --> 00:30:22.800 mystery of why God ordains things that are evil and they just say, oh, we don't know. 492 00:30:22.800 --> 00:30:25.420 It's a mystery. Maybe we'll know in heaven. 493 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:27.200 And like for the open theists, the mystery 494 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:29.420 is how do we deal with difficult biblical prophecies? 495 00:30:29.450 --> 00:30:32.980 And our media says, well, why does God allow evil? 496 00:30:33.010 --> 00:30:34.460 That he pornout will happen. 497 00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:35.740 But I think there's just different 498 00:30:35.760 --> 00:30:39.290 mysteries and depending on which one you're willing to live with, kind of 499 00:30:39.320 --> 00:30:43.880 guides you toward which system you find more acceptable. 500 00:30:44.280 --> 00:30:45.660 A pertinent passage. 501 00:30:45.690 --> 00:30:51.620 Genesis 66 the Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth. 502 00:30:51.650 --> 00:30:53.460 How we deal with that passage? 503 00:30:53.490 --> 00:30:57.620 Yeah, that's one of the big ones that opens his appeal to the idea that God can 504 00:30:57.650 --> 00:31:01.540 change his mind and he can work in different ways with humanity. 505 00:31:01.560 --> 00:31:05.020 So he thought this was going to be a good way, then everyone turned evil. 506 00:31:05.040 --> 00:31:06.700 He's like, okay, I have to deal with this. 507 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:07.810 How am I going to deal with this? 508 00:31:07.840 --> 00:31:11.660 Saves Noah and continues on in an alternate path, but one which still 509 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:14.800 progresses the story towards the fulfillment of his ultimate purposes of 510 00:31:14.830 --> 00:31:19.640 having a people who love him and live in relationship with him forever. 511 00:31:23.360 --> 00:31:25.500 Do we have time? 512 00:31:25.530 --> 00:31:27.900 Yeah, we still have time. 513 00:31:27.930 --> 00:31:30.600 You probably noticed did you know that I'm 514 00:31:30.630 --> 00:31:36.180 going to get killed because I'm a Free Methodist, but I work for Hamilton Alfaya? 515 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:37.780 Did you know that the Free Methodist 516 00:31:37.810 --> 00:31:43.780 Church in Canada on its website does have a statement about open theism that neither 517 00:31:43.810 --> 00:31:48.900 says, oh, we believe everything they believe but expresses some sympathy, is 518 00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:55.760 open to mystery and talks about the things you're trying to hold together. 519 00:31:56.320 --> 00:31:58.050 Do you know that? 520 00:31:58.080 --> 00:31:59.500 Take a look. 521 00:31:59.530 --> 00:32:07.140 Just Google Fmcic, open theism and you'll see denomination statement. 522 00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:11.540 There's also a paper from the US denomination by David Bauer, who's a 523 00:32:11.570 --> 00:32:18.290 highly credible biblical scholar with their study commission's take on it. 524 00:32:18.320 --> 00:32:22.330 And there's a sense of pre. 525 00:32:22.360 --> 00:32:25.400 Methodist or Armenians 526 00:32:26.760 --> 00:32:33.980 have some sympathy towards the non hypercalvanism of opathias, but we don't 527 00:32:34.010 --> 00:32:40.570 say we buy it all and commend it as something to be wrestled with. 528 00:32:40.600 --> 00:32:43.500 And list people who I think it's a 529 00:32:43.530 --> 00:32:48.090 doctrine from hell, list those kinds of citations as well as 530 00:32:48.120 --> 00:32:52.330 those who are even more positive on it than some of us would be. 531 00:32:52.360 --> 00:32:56.480 But yeah, the Free Methodists among us have wrestled with that. 532 00:32:57.920 --> 00:33:03.440 And there is a wide divergence within pre methodism, even if it's on the website. 533 00:33:10.520 --> 00:33:12.740 I think you make a valid point. 534 00:33:12.770 --> 00:33:17.460 That the personal experiences 535 00:33:17.490 --> 00:33:25.290 of individuals tend to tip one in one theological direction or another. 536 00:33:25.320 --> 00:33:29.050 And I think that that relates to the first 537 00:33:29.080 --> 00:33:34.560 presentation very much, that we tend to think that doing theology is. 538 00:33:34.590 --> 00:33:38.460 All about getting systematic and making it all fit and all that. 539 00:33:38.490 --> 00:33:45.090 But the system we tend to relate to has to also be a place. 540 00:33:45.120 --> 00:33:46.780 Where we sit and find comfort and. 541 00:33:46.810 --> 00:33:49.660 Find the love of God. 542 00:33:49.690 --> 00:33:53.440 I think you make very good points. 543 00:33:55.360 --> 00:33:57.780 I think we have to go deeper on the 544 00:33:57.810 --> 00:34:01.380 central question here of why people choose theological systems. 545 00:34:01.410 --> 00:34:04.900 I don't think this is limited to the 546 00:34:04.930 --> 00:34:08.300 this is why people are atheists, this is why people are agnostic. 547 00:34:08.330 --> 00:34:10.860 I think this is this basis of experience 548 00:34:10.890 --> 00:34:14.210 is actually something we have in common with our neighbors. 549 00:34:14.240 --> 00:34:18.820 Some of us do some of us don't believe that theology has anything to do with 550 00:34:18.850 --> 00:34:25.130 we just read the Bible and says but for those of us that 551 00:34:25.160 --> 00:34:28.940 believe that experience plays a role, I think this is actually like a key bridge 552 00:34:28.970 --> 00:34:33.300 building point to engaging all of our neighbors in conversations. 553 00:34:33.330 --> 00:34:34.540 I want to encourage you. 554 00:34:34.570 --> 00:34:38.560 The central question you ask I think is really important. 555 00:34:38.640 --> 00:34:42.210 This is a contrast and compare Armenians. 556 00:34:42.240 --> 00:34:44.380 Versus this is just one example of how 557 00:34:44.410 --> 00:34:47.650 experience affects our preferences in this very narrow condition. 558 00:34:47.680 --> 00:34:51.130 I'm sure there's all sorts of other ways that our experience will affect our 559 00:34:51.160 --> 00:34:53.420 Armenians and all sorts of other theological topics. 560 00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:55.000 And like you said, whether someone even 561 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.860 believes or doesn't believe experience will totally affect that. 562 00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:01.240 I've heard all sorts of stories of people who say, oh, I went to a church and they 563 00:35:01.240 --> 00:35:04.900 didn't like me and they were unwelcoming, so I don't want to be a part of that. 564 00:35:04.930 --> 00:35:09.300 And even those sorts of experiences can really push someone one way or another. 565 00:35:09.330 --> 00:35:14.340 I think there's some sociological research in the United States around authoritarians 566 00:35:14.370 --> 00:35:18.040 that they're saying they have an explanation as 567 00:35:18.070 --> 00:35:23.130 to the rise of Donald Trump beyond the power of a haircut. 568 00:35:23.160 --> 00:35:24.800 But. 569 00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:34.080 They say that there's a preexisting sort of psychological condition or 570 00:35:34.560 --> 00:35:41.100 kinds of needs that lead to sort of authoritarian approaches to 571 00:35:41.130 --> 00:35:47.100 government and that even these traits are not activated until certain conditions. 572 00:35:47.130 --> 00:35:51.900 So I'm curious about I think there's at least a corollary there between the 573 00:35:51.930 --> 00:35:58.980 central question you're asking and I think it's a new line still so encouraging. 574 00:35:59.010 --> 00:36:07.260 James, you started earlier and I think you defined evil a little bit, 575 00:36:07.290 --> 00:36:11.900 but I see on your hand that you have God will, never will or do evil. 576 00:36:11.930 --> 00:36:16.300 Evil results from misuse of God's given free will. 577 00:36:16.330 --> 00:36:20.100 So do you have more of an evil? 578 00:36:20.130 --> 00:36:26.900 People differentiate sin as actions, sin as a condition eat natural evils. 579 00:36:26.930 --> 00:36:34.480 There's a deep analysis of evil in a sense and how it relates, like 580 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:40.340 evil in Augustinian sense, maybe of imperfection you. 581 00:36:40.370 --> 00:36:46.420 And so even when I just was asking for more naming or explanation on how we take 582 00:36:46.450 --> 00:36:52.980 evil, because that even will have a difference on the issue, I guess. 583 00:36:53.010 --> 00:36:57.020 When I was working on this paper and on my thesis, I would consider evil to be 584 00:36:57.050 --> 00:37:00.210 anything that is not what God wants for the world. 585 00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:03.900 So that would include sin, that would include natural evil, that would include 586 00:37:03.930 --> 00:37:07.170 moral evil, that would include our sinful natures. 587 00:37:07.200 --> 00:37:13.100 Although sinful nature is what leads to us doing evil actions in the world. 588 00:37:13.130 --> 00:37:15.500 So it's really a huge category of things. 589 00:37:15.530 --> 00:37:18.620 Basically, if we think of life now and 590 00:37:18.640 --> 00:37:22.170 what life might be in heaven, based on a couple of books that I've read and stuff 591 00:37:22.200 --> 00:37:25.690 like that, anything that will not be in heaven, I. 592 00:37:25.720 --> 00:37:30.020 Would practice basically bulldogsky. 593 00:37:30.050 --> 00:37:31.640 It. 594 00:37:32.600 --> 00:37:35.940 If you're a doctor, it's my experience. 595 00:37:35.970 --> 00:37:36.980 Yeah. 596 00:37:37.010 --> 00:37:38.540 Thank you, Janelle. 597 00:37:38.570 --> 00:37:40.960 Great job again. 598 00:37:44.680 --> 00:37:44.960 So.